Preamble

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

BIRMINGHAM CORPORATION (GENERAL POWERS) [MONEY].

Committee to consider of authorising the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of any additional expenses under the Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1925, which may be occasioned by any Act of the present Session excepting service as a school teacher at Monyhull Colony, Moseley, from the provisions of the Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act, 1896 (King's Recommendation signified), to-morrow.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Oral Answers to Questions — UNEMPLOYMENT.

NATIONAL WORKSHOPS AND DOCKYARDS (ALTERNATIVE WORK).

Sir KINGSLEY WOOD: 1.
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether the Government have now come to any conclusion with regard to the possibility of alternative work being carried on in the national workshops and yards?

The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Mr. J. H. Thomas): I have nothing to add to the reply given yesterday by my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty to the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Hore-Belisha), of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy.

Sir K. WOOD: Has the Lord Privy Seal consulted the Prime Minister on this matter? Does the right hon. Gentleman know that when the Prime Minister was a candidate for East Woolwich he was full of schemes of this kind?

Mr. R. RICHARDSON: Does my right hon. Friend know of any action which was taken by the late Government in this matter?

Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether his Department is going to be responsible for the alternative work, or whether it is to be left entirely to the Admiralty?

Mr. THOMAS: My Department is not responsible for the alternative work, but the Admiralty.

LAND COLONISATION.

Sir K. WOOD: 2.
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he has any legislative proposals to make to enable the unemployed to work on the land; and whether he has given consideration to the scheme recently publicly proposed by the First Commissioner of Works of spending some millions of money in land colonisation in Great Britain.

Mr. THOMAS: The Government are considering the promotion of legislation to enable comprehensive works of land drainage to be undertaken. This is a field in which work on the land could make an early contribution to unemployment. The Government have also increased the programme of the Forestry Commission from £5,500,000 to £9,000,000. No legislation is required. This extension will enable the settlement on forest holdings of increased numbers of married miners.

Sir K. WOOD: Has the right hon. Gentleman consulted the First Commissioner of Works on his scheme for land colonisation? Does he know that the First Commissioner of Works has devoted a great deal of time to this matter?

Mr. THOMAS: I believe that the First Commissioner has devoted a considerable time to the matter. I also have devoted a considerable time to it, and this is the practical result of that consideration.

Mr. SKELTON: Are we to understand that the present Government do not propose to develop land settlement other than forest settlement during their term of office?

Mr. THOMAS: Oh, no; the hon. Member must not understand that. He must only understand that this is a first contribution.

Sir BASIL PETO: Will this proposal be included in the White Paper which was promised yesterday?

Mr. THOMAS: No, Sir.

Mr. SPEAKER: We are taking a long time over this question.

LONDON UNDERGROUND RAILWAYS (TUBE DEVELOPMENT).

Sir GEORGE HAMILTON: 5.
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether proposals have been made to him that the underground railways of London should be granted the financial assistance of the Government in undertaking further tube developments; and to how much do the grants already made to these railways for the extension of their lines amount?

Mr. THOMAS: I would refer the hon. Member to the statement which I made on this subject yesterday.

SHIPBUILDING.

Mr. MORLEY: 21.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will prepare and secure adequate finance for schemes to construct new passenger and mail ships and cargo and fishing vessels, to provide alternative employment for those workers displaced by the reduction in naval armaments?

Mr. RAYNES: 36.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the increasing unemployment among iron and steel shipbuilders consequent upon the slowing-down of the building of warships, he is prepared to assist in providing alternative employment by guaranteeing loans for the building of ships necessary to maintain and develop our national and international trade?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Snowden): I have been asked to answer. The suggestion made cannot be divorced from the general question of State financial assistance to industry generally. Upon this I am not able to add to the statements of policy already made on behalf of the Government.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Am I to understand that the position in regard to shipbuilding is final, or is it temporary? Will it be open to consideration later on?

Mr. SNOWDEN: Of course, if circumstances should change, the Government will always be ready to take the changed circumstances into account.

Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Is this matter being left entirely to the Admiralty, or are the Government going to put forward proposals for alternative work?

Mr. SNOWDEN: I do not think that question arises.

Mr. EDE: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to the disadvantage of shipbuilders in this country having to compete with countries like Northern Ireland and Scandinavia, where trading facilities are in existence?

TRANSFERRED MINERS, DURHAM.

Mr. LAWTHER: 40.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade as representing the Forestry Commissioners, the wages paid to transferred miners on the Hamsterley Grove Estate, Durham; the terms upon which they have been granted small holdings; and the deductions made for rents?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. W. R. Smith): The wages paid to the six transferred ex-miners employed as forest workers on the Grove Estate, Hamsterley, Durham, average 62s. per fortnight. Seven members of the families of three of these men are also employed. One hag a house only for which the rent is 6s. 2d. per fortnight. The others have houses and holdings varying in extent from 9½ acres to 17¾. The rents at present payable for the five holdings vary from 9s. to 14s. 10d. per fortnight, the average being 11s. 6d.

Mr. LAWTHER: Are the Commissioners prepared to reconsider the whole question of wages of these transferred miners?

Mr. SMITH: The whole question of the wages of these workers is now under consideration.

CHANNEL TUNNEL.

Mr. HORE-BELISHA: 3.
asked the Lord Privy Seal when it (may be expected that the Report of the Commission instituted to report on the Channel Tunnel will be published?

Mr. THURTLE: 7.
asked the Lord Privy Seal when he expects to receive the Report of the Committee appointed to inquire into the commercial and financial aspects of the Channel Tunnel project?

Mr. THOMAS: I have nothing to add at present to what I said on this subject yesterday.

Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to make a decision as soon as possible?

Mr. THOMAS: It would not be fair to say that I am urging them to give a decision as soon as possible, because that might be construed, having regard to the importance of their job, as interference. But I have asked them to furnish me with their Report as soon as possible, and, in addition, I have granted additional money for engineering work to enable them to submit their Report as speedily as possible.

Captain CROOKSHANK: Will that money require an Estimate?

Mr. THOMAS: No.

Oral Answers to Questions — TRADE AND COMMERCE.

IRON AND STEEL INDUSTRIES (CANADIAN TRADE).

Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALL: 4.
asked the Lord Privy Seal what countries he found, as the result of his investigations of the conditions of Canadian trade, were the keenest competitors of this country as regards the export to Canada of iron and steel products; and whether the ability of these countries to undercut British goods was to any considerable extent due to inferior labour conditions in the iron and steel industries?

Mr. THOMAS: Over 90 per cent. by value of the imports into Canada of iron and its products during the year ended 31st March, 1929, came from the United States of America. I am circulating the comparative figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I do not think this position can be attributed to any considerable extent to inferior labour conditions in that country.

Sir F. HALL: What is attributable?

Mr. THOMAS: It is not for me to apportion blame. The question put to
me is: Is it due to inferior labour conditions? I answer by saying emphatically "No." If the hon. and gallant Gentleman wants to put a further question on any other aspect of the matter, I will answer it.

Sir F. HALL: Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that the question I am asking is not to whom he should impute the blame? It is not a question of blame at all. Does he recognise the difficulty there is in this country in regard to the exportation of iron and steel products, and to what is it attributable?

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. and gallant Gentleman must put down another question.

Following are the figures:


Canada. Iron and its products.
Year ended 31st March, 1929.



Dollars.


Total Imports of which from
346,610,939


United States
317,089,125


United Kingdom
18,997,316


Belgium
3,679,869


Germany
3,030,229


Sweden
1,646,205

MOTOR INDUSTRY (IMPORT DUTIES).

Sir NICHOLAS GRATTAN-DOYLE: 6.
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether, in his recent interview with representatives of the British motor car manufacturing industry, the question of existing import duties was discussed; and whether any undertaking was given in regard to the Government's intentions as to changes in these duties?

Mr. THOMAS: The question of the existing import duties is one of the matters discussed at the meetings I have had with the representatives of the British motor car manufacturing industry, and I have been placed in possession of their views. No statement from me as to the Government's intentions with regard to those duties was expected. As I informed the House yesterday, the question of the motor export trade is being explored in all its aspects.

Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLE: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House any indication of the mind of the Government, or of what he is going to do?

Mr. THOMAS: The mind of the Government was clearly indicated on this subject by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Sir WILLIAM MITCHELL-THOMSON: Are we to understand from that statement that no variation in the statement already made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to be expected in advance of the next Budget?

Mr. THOMAS: You are to understand exactly what that statement was and what it implied.

Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: Is any further statement of the Government's intention to be made before the next Budget?

Mr. THOMAS: If there is, the statement will be made in the usual way.

Mr. BECKETT: Will my right hon. Friend consider the fact that it is a very bad way to encourage our own exports by starting to raise barriers against imports?

Captain EDEN: Does the right hon. Gentleman not now appreciate that a declaration in favour of maintaining these duties will affect the motor car industry far more than any eloquence of the right hon. Gentleman can do?

Mr. THOMAS: My eloquence is not under review, but the knowledge given to me by those engaged in the industry is far more important even than the question of the hon. and gallant Member.

Major McKENZIE WOOD: Did the right hon. Gentleman give a personal pledge of any action or promise to these manufacturers?

Mr. THOMAS: I have already answered quite clearly, "No."

Mr. W. THORNE: Is my right hon. Friend aware that certain hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House stated quite definitely—[Interruption.]

OVERSEAS TRADE (CANADA).

Mr. WHEATLEY: 15.
asked the President of the Board of Trade what percentage off the total trade of Great Britain is with countries outside the British Isles; and what portion of this is with Canada?

The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. William Graham): As the answer is long, I will, with my right hon. Friend's permission circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the answer:

The total of the values exchanged in all trading transactions in this country is not recorded, and I know of no satisfactory method of forming a reliable estimate of its amount. An effort has, however, been made to frame an estimate, based on the results of the Census of Production of 1924, of the aggregate value of the goods which passed out of the hands of producers or importers, on their way to consumers, in that year, and to compare this total with the exports of the year. The estimate relates, not to Great Britain, but to the United Kingdom, covering also Northern Ireland, for which a separate comparable estimate is not available. Of the aggregate of the goods thus passing to consumers at home and sent out of the country, the proportion despatched beyond the British Isles is calculated to have been between 21 and 22 per cent. of which those despatched to Canada formed about one part in twenty-five. In more recent periods the proportion of exports to Canada has been more nearly one in twenty, but no estimate of the total of the goods consumed at home, comparable with that framed for 1924, can be made until a further Census of Production is taken.

IMPORTED MANUFACTURES (LABOUR STANDARDS).

Mr. ALLEN: 22.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of his undertaking to deal with the question of the import into this country of sweated goods through international discussion, he has any progress to report in this matter?

Mr. W. GRAHAM: The Government will continue to take every opportunity to promote international agreement on labour standards.

Mr. ALLEN: May I ask if the right hon. Gentleman appreciates the fact that the question has an important bearing on unemployment, and is the Government prepared to do anything in the matter?

Mr. GRAHAM: That connection is quite clearly recognised, and I can assure the hon. Member that it is constantly before us.

Mr. SANDERS: May I ask whether the attention of the right hon. Gentleman has been called to the action taken by the International Labour Conference of the League of Nations with regard to international agreements concerning minimum wages fixed by law, and with the attitude of British employers of labour towards that proposal?

Mr. GRAHAM: There has been a good deal of material circulated under the auspices of the League of Nations and other bodies, and I think the House will agree that I can hardly start discussing these matters in reply to a Supplementary Question.

Brigadier-General Sir HENRY CROFT: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not the case that if he is successful in persuading Europe to stabilise present tariffs, it will be impossible for this or any other Government to deal with the question of imported sweated goods?

Mr. GRAHAM: I do not agree for a moment that there is the connection which the hon. and gallant Member suggests. I think it is quite possible to support a movement to reduce tariffs and at the same time to support a movement to improve labour conditions.

Sir H. CROFT: Was not the right hon. Gentleman's proposal to stabilise existing tariffs?

HON. MEMBERS: No!

IMPERIAL PREFERENCE.

Sir K. WOOD: 45.
asked the Prime Minister whether he can now lay Papers containing the correspondence between the Government and the Dominions upon the Government's proposals in relation to Imperial Preference and kindred matters?

The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): A similar question was asked on the 15th July and answered in the negative. The matter has been further considered, but His Majesty's Government are unable to depart from their previous decision. They share the opinion of their predecessors that there
can be no free expression and interchange of views between this country and the Dominions if the correspondence on each occasion requires to be conducted with the possibility in mind of its eventually having to be published.

EXPORT CREDIT AND TRADE FACILITY GUARANTEES.

Mr. ALBERY: 61.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the total amount of any export credit and trade facility guarantees which have been given since the present Government came into office?

The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence): The total amount of contracts entered into under the Export Credits Guarantee Scheme between 8th June and 2nd November is £1,888,192. The power to give guarantees under the former Trade Facilities Acts expired on 31st March, 1927.

Mr. ALBERY: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the Government are satisfied or disappointed so far with these results?

Mr. MILLS: Does this represent the sum total of applications under that scheme?

Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: As regards the new Development (Loan Guarantees and Grants) Act, the Lord Privy Seal stated yesterday that the schemes sanctioned to date amounted to £7,000,000 and that they were all on the grant of interest basis.

CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS.

Mr. DAY: 10.
asked the President of the Board of Trade what steps his Department has taken to give effect to the recommendations of the advisory committee appointed under the Cinematograph Films Act to prevent a monopoly of sound-recording methods?

Mr. W. GRAHAM: As my hon. Friend is no doubt aware, the situation is somewhat easier than it was, and while I understand that the advisory committee are watching it, I have not up to the present received from them any specific recommendations.

Mr. BECKETT: 23.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he
has now considered the position of the British film producing industry; and whether he is proposing to introduce any legislation dealing with the matter or to appoint any committee to investigate and advise upon the condition of the industry and the effects of recent legislation?

Mr. GRAHAM: There is already an advisory committee, appointed under the terms of the Act, which is constantly watching the course of the industry, and I shall of course give careful consideration to any recommendations they may make to me at any time. I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by the appointment of another committee.

Mr. BECKETT: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he has received any report recently from that Committee, and has he satisfied himself that the terms of reference are sufficient for them to advise him on this important question?

Mr. GRAHAM: I understand that reports are received from time to time. I have not recently considered the terms of reference. Quite plainly the Government cannot promise fresh legislation, but I will make inquiries on the point raised in the hon. Member's supplementary question.

Sir PHILIP CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Is it not the fact that this advisory committee have complete authority to advise on any subject arising under the Act?

Mr. GRAHAM: I think the right hon. Gentleman has described exactly the situation under the terms of the Act.

Mr. BECKETT: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the reason why an inquiry is necessary is because the Act is a dead letter?

NAVIGABLE WATERS (OIL POLLUTION).

Captain PETER MACDONALD: 8.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received any complaints respecting the discharge of oil within 50 miles of the coast of Great Britain; and, if so, what action he has taken in the matter?

Mr. W. GRAHAM: Complaints are received from time to time and, where the waters affected are within the limit
of a harbour, the attention of the Harbour Authority is drawn to the complaint. Proceedings have been taken in a number of these cases by the Harbour Authorities. Reports of oil which has drifted ashore or has been observed at a distance from the coast, outside harbour limits, are occasionally received, but owing to the difficulty of tracing the vessels which discharge the oil, it has not been possible to take action. The number of complaints has decreased during the last two years.

Sir COOPER RAWSON: Is not the proper alternative the compulsory fitting of separators in ships?

Mr. GRAHAM: That matter also has been discussed, but there are difficulties in securing the application of that proposal. I can only assure the hon. Member that the matter was kept before us in the preparation of this reply.

Sir BURTON CHADWICK: Would it not be quite impossible to impose upon British shipowners the necessity of fitting oil separators?

Captain GUNSTON: If ships discharge oil outside the three miles limit, is it possible to take action against them?

Mr. GRAHAM: I should like notice of that question. No doubt that raises points which were not before us when this answer was drafted.

Captain MACDONALD: 9.
asked the President of the Board of Trade what numbers of inspections of vessels and premises have been made by his Department in the present year under the provisions of the Oil in Navigable Waters Act, 1922?

Mr. GRAHAM: No inspections of the kind mentioned have been made in the present year.

FOOD PRICES (CONSUMERS' COUNCIL).

Mr. WISE: 14 and 7.
asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) what action he proposes to take in view of the high cost of distribution of milk and of the disregard shown by the traders of the views expressed by himself and by the Food Council;
(2) what action he proposes to take with respect to the existing Food Council?

Mr. W. J. BROWN: 19.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is yet in a position to announce the intentions of the Government in regard to equipping the Food Council with powers to regulate prices where profiteering in food is discovered, and where publicity does not suffice to stop the profiteering?

Mr. GRANVILLE GIBSON: 33.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has any evidence that the prevailing prices of certain staple foodstuffs are unreasonably high; and, in that event, will he consider taking steps to counteract such charges?

Mr. HERBERT GIBSON: 34.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is now in a position to state the Government's policy regarding food prices?

Mr. W. GRAHAM: The Government have considered the position of the Food Council, with particular reference to the recent refusal of London milk distributors to conform to the Council's recommendations as to the retail price of milk in August last. I should like at the outset to state that the Government fully recognise the value of the work done by the Food Council, notwithstanding that since its inception in 1925 it has had no statutory basis and has been without power to require the production of information when it was not forthcoming voluntarily. I may add that neither the Food Council nor any other body has power to compel the observance of the Food Council's recommendations.
In the opinion of the Government, this position is highly unsatisfactory, and we intend to submit proposals to alter it early next year.
The Government are of opinion that the interests of the consumer demand that investigation should take place not only in regard to foodstuffs, but also in regard to other necessaries of life. With this object in view, we propose to ask Parliament to set up a Consumers' Council, which shall have power to obtain compulsorily any information that it may require for the purposes of its inquiries.
The Government intend also to submit proposals enabling them to deal with trading interests which refuse to accept the views which the Government may reach after considering the recommendations of the Consumers' Council.
As I have already indicated, it must be some months before the Consumers' Council can be set up. I am therefore asking the Food Council to remain in being for the purpose of carrying out investigations into such food quesaions as may arise meantime.

Sir HERBERT SAMUEL: In regard to legislation, will the Government consider the advisability of applying it, not only to commodities which may be termed necessaries of life, but to commodities which are subject to monopolies or quasi-monopolies, such as petrol and tobacco, or any other monopoly of the kind?

Mr. GRAHAM: That is part of a wider field, but I may tell the right hon. Gentleman that that also has been considered. The House will, however, clearly understand that at the moment I am not forecasting in any way the scope of the legislation. The point mentioned shall not be overlooked.

Mr. WISE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is the intention of the Government to take powers to control distribution and supply as well as to fix maximum prices?

Mr. GRAHAM: I am afraid that I cannot go beyond the limits of the reply which I have given. I cannot this afternoon in any way indicate the exact scope of the legislation. That is outside the powers which we propose to take as indicated in the answer.

Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Are we to understand that the right hon. Gentleman has not made up his mind yet, not only as to whether he proposes to have compulsory investigation, but also as to whether he contemplates the possibility of taking powers to control and manage distribution?

Mr. GRAHAM: The right hon. Gentleman must not understand that. He knows that this is a very difficult problem, but I think we can promise sound legislation upon it, as on other subjects.

Mr. ANEURIN BEVAN: Am I to understand that in the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman the attitude of the late Government was futile in these matters?

Mr. HASLAM: rose—

Mr. SPEAKER: We must pass to the next question.

Sir ERNEST SHEPPERSON: 16.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that on 29th July last English wheat was being sold for 55s. per quarter and the four-pound loaf of bread was 8½ d. in London, whereas on 16th September British wheat had fallen to 41s. 6d. per quarter but the four-pound loaf of bread had risen to 9d.; and will he refer the matter to the Food Council?

Mr. GRAHAM: My information is that the price of English wheat in London on 29th July last was 54s. to 55s. per quarter and on 16th September, 43s. to. 43s. 6d. per quarter. The price of bread in London was 9d. per four pound on both dates, but was reduced on 14th October to 8½ d. The flour from which London bread is made is milled mainly from imported wheats, the proportion of English wheat used being small. I may add that on both the dates referred to by the hon. Member the price of bread in London was within the scale approved by the Food Council.

Sir E. SHEPPERSON: Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Food Council to consider who is responsible for this very apparent exploitation either of the British farmer or of the consumer?

Mr. GRAHAM: I understand that this subject is practically under continuous review, but I will gladly make any further inquiries on the matter raised by the hon. Member.

Mr. ALLEN: 39.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the dumping on the home market of German bounty-aided wheat and cereals, he will consult with the Food Council with a view to passing on the benefit to the consumer?

Mr. GRAHAM: The price of bread is dominated by the price of flour, and the relationship between the two is continuously kept under review by the Food Council. In these circumstances, I do not think that any special reference to the Food Council is called for.

Mr. ALLEN: Is it not a fact that it is always the middleman and not the consumer who benefits from free imports?

MARITIME PROPERTY (DRAFT CONVENTION.)

Rear-Admiral BEAMISH: 18.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the amendments to the draft convention concerning the immunity of states in respect of maritime property have now been accepted by other Governments concerned; what is the nature of the amendments; and what are the prospects of early ratification?

Mr. W. GRAHAM: This matter is still the subject of negotiation, and I am unable to say what are the prospects of early ratification of the Convention. The object of the proposed amendments to the Convention is to make clear the sense in which His Majesty's Government understand the Convention. The amendments relate mainly to safeguarding the position of ships of war and other ships on Governmental non-commercial service.

Rear-Admiral BEAMISH: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the draft was submitted to the other Governments?

Mr. GRAHAM: No, Sir, not without notice. As the hon. and gallant Member must know, this is a long-drawn-out process. I can quite easily get the date.

Rear-Admiral BEAMISH: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise the extreme importance to shipowners, bankers, dock and harbour authorities of getting this Convention agreed to?

Mr. GRAHAM: There is very great force in that point, but, unfortunately, other countries have to be consulted. Hence the delay.

Oral Answers to Questions — AGRICULTURE.

ARGENTINE PRODUCE (IMPORTS).

Mr. MATTERS: 20.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state what is the value of pastoral and agricultural produce imported into the United Kingdom from the Argentine Republic for the period 1st January, 1925, to 31st December, 1928?

Mr. W. GRAHAM: As the answer involves a table of figures, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following are the figures:

The declared value of the total imports of merchandise into the United Kingdom consigned from the Argentine Republic was as follows:



£


1925
68,856,000


1926
67,505,000


1927
76,496,000


1928
76,789,000

Practically the whole of these imports consisted of pastoral and agricultural produce.

AUSTRALIAN BUTTER (EXPORT BOUNTY).

Mr. HURD: 31.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can state, and, if not, whether he will ascertain, what bounties, if any, are given upon the exportation of butter from Australia to the British market?

Mr. W. GRAHAM: There is no direct Government bounty on the export of butter from Australia, but the producers impose a voluntary levy on themselves, and I understand that an export bounty on all butter exported, amounting at present to 4½ d. per lb, is paid out of the proceeds of this levy.

IMPORTED POTATOES.

Major COLVILLE: 72.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that the potato growers have suffered losses during this year; that, in spite of the fact that the home-grown supply is ample for home consumption, the importation of foreign potatoes continues; and what action he is prepared to take to deal with a situation that will cause much land to go out of cultivation?

The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. William Adamson): The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the last part I have already been in consultation with the Scottish Chamber of Agriculture on the subject, and have strongly urged that growers should better organise the marketing of their potatoes.

Major COLVILLE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in spite of the fact that producers have been heavily hit, consumers have not benefited; and will he
consider why the Council of Consumers should not take this matter into their careful consideration?

Mr. ADAMSON: That is just the reason why I gave this advice to the Chamber of Agriculture.

LIMITED COMPANIES (ANNUAL RETURNS).

Mr. GRAHAM WHITE: 24.
asked the President of the Board of Trade on the latest convenient date, the number of limited companies which have failed to make their annual return to the Registrar of Joint Stock Companies in accordance with the Companies Acts?

Mr. W. GRAHAM: The great bulk of the cases in which the annual return is delayed are cases of companies which, as the result of applications for the return, are found to have ceased to carry on business and which are accordingly struck off the register in due course. On 1st November there were 240 cases of failure to file the return for 1928 which had not been disposed of, but the number diminishes daily. I may add that the total number of companies on the Register at the end of 1928 was 107,500.

Mr. WHITE: In view of the importance of this matter, and having regard to certain recent events, is the right hon. Gentleman taking special steps to ensure that these companies will be dealt with?

Mr. GRAHAM: As my hon. Friend suggests this is a subject for fresh consideration, then all the points he has in mind will be considered.

MERCANTILE MARINE (SAILORS' PAY).

Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: 25.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been brought to the hardship which accrues to sailors by receiving, their pay on shore instead of on the ship; is he aware that many men have to pay for a night's board and lodging and meals on shore while waiting in some cases days for the payment; that this delay is caused by the Board of Trade regulations requiring the attendance of an official of the Board of Trade at these payments on shore; and whether he will consider the
attendance of a Board of Trade representative on the ship, especially in the case of large liners, in cases in which the owners and men agree to this course being followed?

Mr. W. GRAHAM: The Merchant Shipping Acts require that seamen on foreign-going ships must be discharged and paid their wages in the presence of a Board of Trade officer. The Board's arrangements for the discharge and payment of seamen enable the wishes of shipowners and seamen to be met to a large extent in the manner suggested in the question; at ports where the large liners are dealt with, a high proportion of seamen are discharged and receive their pay on board ship. The Board could not make such arrangements general without a large increase of staff, which I do not think would be justified.

Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that this is brought to the notice of some of the shipowners?

Mr. GRAHAM: There is no difficulty in doing that, but probably the hon. and gallant Member has cases of foreign ships in mind. If there are such cases I shall be glad to help.

Oral Answers to Questions — SAFEGUARDING OF INDUSTRIES.

LACE.

Brigadier-General Sir H. CROFT: 26.
asked the President of the Board of Trade how the sales of lace during the year ended 30th June, 1929, compared with the sales in the year ended 30th June, 1925?

Mr. W. GRAHAM: As judged by information which the lace trade have supplied, relating to the sales of a considerable number of lace finishers (representing in 1924 about 60 per cent. of the sales), the sales of finished lace during the year ended 30th June, 1929, are estimated to have exceeded the sales during the year ended 30th June, 1925, by about 60 to 65 per cent.

Mr. KELLY: May I ask if the figures include plain nets as well as lace nets?

Sir H. CROFT: Is this the first industry which is to be dealt with by his colleague the Chancellor of the Exchequer?

Mr. GRAHAM: In reply to the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly), I should require notice of that question.

GLOVES.

Sir H. CROFT: 27 and 28.
asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) the output of fabric gloves and the number of people employed in the manufacture of fabric gloves during the quarters ended 30th June and 30th September, 1929, respectively;
(2) the output of leather gloves and the number of people employed in the manufacture of leather gloves during the quarters ended 30th June and 30th September, respectively?

Mr. GRAHAM: As the answer involves, a number of figures, I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Sir H. CROFT: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the information regarding the increase in the number of persons employed?

Mr. GRAHAM: I think the answer to that is that there is a certain improvement.

Following is the answer:

According to particulars furnished by the Joint Industrial Council for the Glove-making Industry, the number of leather gloves cut during the second quarter of 1929 was 159,840 dozen pairs, and the average number of persons employed was 8,980. The number of fabric gloves cut during the second quarter of 1929 was 70,310 dozen pairs, and the average number of persons employed was 1,306. Similar particulars for the third quarter of 1929 have not yet been received by the Board of Trade. The figures for leather gloves are stated to relate to firms which, in 1924, employed 88 per cent. of the cutters in that industry, and those for fabric gloves to firms which, in 1924, employed 82 per cent. of the cutters in that industry. The numbers of workpeople are inclusive of outworkers.

ENAMELLED HOLLOWWARE.

Mr. HANNON: 29.
asked the President of the Board of Trade how the output of enamelled hollowware for the first six months of 1929 compares with the output during the corresponding period of 1928?

Mr. GRAHAM: As the answer involves a table of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Mr. HANNON: Really, this is too bad. May I ask whether there has not been substantial improvement in this industry as compared with last year?

Mr. GRAHAM: There is no difficulty in the matter. The only reason is that I have 31 questions to answer, and this is an elaborate table of figures. There is a certain improvement.

Following is the answer:

STATEMENT showing the production (quantity and value) of Wrought Enamelled Hollow-ware in each half year ended June, 1928 and 1929.

Compiled from figures supplied by the Wrought Hollow-ware Trade Employers' Association and by certain firms outside the Association.

Period.
Wrought Enamelled Hollow-ware made.


Quantity.
Value.


1928.
Tons.
£


First Quarter
2,963
238,532


Second Quarter
2,609
212,579


Total for six months
5,572
451,111


1929.




First Quarter
4,165
311,796


Second Quarter
3,601
270,932


Total for six months
7,766
582,728

These figures are believed to cover the major portion of the industry.

BUTTONS.

Mr. HANNON: 30.
asked the President of the Board of Trade how the output of buttons for the first six months of 1929 compares with the output during the corresponding period in 1928?

Mr. GRAHAM: I have received particulars from firms understood to be responsible for about two-thirds of the output of buttons in this country. These figures show that the output of these firms during the first half of this year was about one-seventh greater than a year ago.

Mr. HANNON: In view of the series of facts presented to the House this afternoon, will the right hon. Gentleman impress on the Chancellor of the Exchequer the importance of continuing the policy of his predecessor in this respect?

Mr. GRAHAM: The whole of the facts are before us, and I would like to warn the House that much of the information does not support the argument for Safeguarding at all. There are innumerable other considerations underlying this question.

Mr. BECKETT: rose—

Mr. SPEAKER: I would remind the House that we have 138 questions to be answered, and that we shall not be able to get very far at this rate of progress.

Oral Answers to Questions — GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

ENEMY DEBTS DEPARTMENT.

Mr. KELLY: 35.
asked the President of the Board of Trade what action has been taken on the report of the investigation into the work of the Enemy Debts Department; and if such report is now available to Members of this House?

Mr. W. GRAHAM: I would refer my hon. Friend to the replies I gave him on this subject on the 16th and 25th July last.

Mr. KELLY: In view of the anxiety with regard to the conduct of this Department, can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that this report will be available to Members of the House?

Mr. GRAHAM: No. I have already replied to my hon. Friend that this is an inter-departmental report or a departmental report which is not made public under normal conditions. All the facts of the matter which he has in mind are before me, but I could not promise to-day to publish the report.

Mr. KELLY: In view of the consideration of those matters which the right hon. Gentleman has in hand at the present time, are we likely to have a report from him as to what he does with the members of the staff?

Mr. GRAHAM: That raises a matter on which I cannot possibly make any statement to the House this afternoon.

CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS.

Captain Sir GEORGE BOWYER: 49.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what grounds the Government have issued the recent Circular E of the 10th September, 1929, by which conscientious objectors in the Civil Service have been given back all their rights; and is he aware that these conscientious objectors have thereby been placed in a better position than post-War soldiers and sailors?

Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: With regard to the first part of the question, it is considered that there is no longer any justification for continuing the disabilities imposed on conscientious objectors in the Civil Service. With regard to the second part, it would not appear that the decision referred to will affect the position of post-War entrants in relation to the men concerned.

Sir G. BOWYER: Does the hon. Member realise that the decision amounts to this, that the ex-service men who had temporary service are not allowed to include that service for increment of pension, but that conscientious objectors are now allowed to include the four years in which they did not serve the State in that capacity for increment of pension?

Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: There is a question on the Order Paper on that point, and I will answer that when the time comes.

Sir G. BOWYER: If this decision was right, why was it not applied also to the Defence Services, and why are they specifically excluded from the Order of 10th September?

Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: That raises a separate question, of which I must have notice.

Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: Does the hon. Member think it is right that conscientious objectors should be put into a better position than ex-service men?

Sir G. BOWYER: I beg to give notice that I will raise this question at an early date on the Motion for the Adjournment.

Captain AUSTIN HUDSON: 60.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how many conscientious Objectors will benefit by the Treasury Circular of 10th
September; and how many ex-service men will have their promotion prospects worsened as a consequence thereof?

Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: Approximately 200 civil servants come within the provisions of the Treasury Circular to which the hon. and gallant Member refers. The admission of this relatively small number of men to full eligibility for promotion will, in my opinion, have no appreciable effect on the promotion prospects of ex-service men in the Civil Service generally.

Captain HUDSON: Does not this procedure go back on the promises made to the ex-servicemen when they went to the war?

Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: That, of course, raises another question, but as far as I know it does not do anything of the kind.

Colonel HOWARD-BURY: Can the hon. Member say what "appreciable effect" is?

SOMERSET HOUSE RECEIPTS (ADVERTISEMENTS).

Mr. PHILIP OLIVER: 59.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that within the last two years advertisements of Corporation and General Securities, Limited, have appeared on the official receipts issued from Somerset House; and will he in future restrict the advertisements appearing on such receipts to those of an official character?

Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part, His Majesty's Government decided in July last that, subject to current contracts, Government forms should no longer be used for private advertisements.

Oral Answers to Questions — BRITISH ARMY.

RHINELAND (EVACUATION).

Captain P. MACDONALD: 41.
asked the Secretary of State for War what number of British troops have been evacuated from the Rhineland occupation area to date; and when the evacuation will be completed?

The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. T. Shaw): The number of British troops evacuated from the Rhine up to 30th October was approximately 3,350. It is estimated that the evacuation will be completed by the middle of December.

Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLE: 67.
asked the Secretary of State for War what provision was made for the accommodation of the wives and children of soldiers evacuated from the Rhineland occupation area; and whether such provision proved adequate or whether measures had to be taken to house families at some distance from the units in which the men were serving?

Mr. SHAW: In the case of battalions proceeding to stations other than Catterick the families on the married quarters roll will take over the accommodation set free by outgoing troops. At Catterick married quarters have been provided for 37 warrant officers and 598 married soldiers. This will accommodate all the families on the married quarters roll of the battalions returning from the Rhine, except some 17 families. Of these, 16 have been able to secure lodgings locally and will receive lodging allowance, and one has been provided with married quarters at the station of the regimental depot. Provision of quarters at the public expense is limited to those families who are on the married quarters roll, but in view of the special difficulties of finding accommodation at Catterick such assistance as is possible has been given to families not on the married quarters roll, by the maintenance of a register of available lodgings and by allowing certain temporary war hutting to be occupied by them.

TIME-EXPIRED AND DEMOBILISED MEN (EMPLOYMENT).

Mr. OSWALD LEWIS: 42.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he proposes to take any further steps to ensure that employment is offered to all time-expired men on leaving the Army; and, if so, what the nature of such steps will be?

Mr. SHAW: No further steps have been taken in addition to those given to the hon. Member on 16th July.

Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLE: 66.
asked the Secretary of State for War what
steps have been taken to provide for the absorption into normal civilian employment of British troops withdrawn from the Rhineland and subsequently demobilised?

Mr. SHAW: It is not anticipated that the withdrawal of the Army of the Rhine will involve compulsory premature discharges or transfers to the Army Reserve.

CHEMICAL WARFARE (EXPERIMENTAL STATIONS).

Mr. GRAHAM WHITE: 43.
asked the Secretary of State for War if it is his intention to close down the experimental stations for chemical warfare at Porton and Sutton Oak?

Rear-Admiral BEAMISH: 62.
asked the Secretary of State for War if the experimental stations at Porton and Sutton Oak are now in use; what is the nature of the research carried on there; and if the Government intend that these stations shall continue?

Mr. SHAW: Research work on protection against chemical warfare is being carried out at both Porton and Sutton Oak. I am advised that it is necessary to continue this defensive research work.

Mr. THURTLE: Is the work at these stations restricted to defensive work?

Mr. SHAW: As far as my information goes, the answer is "Yes."

PALESTINE (EXPENDITURE).

Captain E. N. BENNETT: 44.
asked the Secretary of State for War what expenditure has been incurred through the transport and employment of troops in connection with the recent riots in Palestine?

Mr. T. SHAW: I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave on the 31st October to the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight (Captain P. Macdonald), of which I am sending him a copy.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is it not a fact that no troops would have been required if the late Government had not reduced the police forces?

GUN PRACTICE, NEWHAVEN.

Rear-Admiral BEAMISH: 63.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether and to what extent inconvenience to the
public caused by gun-firing from New-haven Fort can be further minimised in the future?

Mr. T. SHAW: The question whether the programme of firing at Newhaven can be reduced in future, having regard to training requirements, is being carefully examined, but no decision has as yet been reached.

Rear-Admiral BEAMISH: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that heavy gun firing by Territorial units is essential?

Mr. SHAW: That is a question on which naturally I must have the advice of the expert advisers of the War Office.

FOOD PURCHASES.

Captain CROOKSHANK: 64.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, seeing that national mark schemes have been introduced for beef and flour, he is taking any steps towards helping such schemes by purchasing national mark beef and flour for the troops stationed in this country?

Mr. SHAW: I have nothing to add to the answer given yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture to the hon. Member for Horncastle (Mr. Haslam), of which I am sending the hon. and gallant Member a copy.

Captain CROOKSHANK: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what is the use of the Government inviting the public to buy English beef if they do not buy it themselves?

ROYAL MILITARY ACADEMY, WOOLWICH.

Mr. OLIVER BALDWIN: 65.
asked the Secretary of State for War if he can give the House any information of the reason why, at a dance at the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich last February, one boy's arm was broken and several cadets fainted?

Mr. SHAW: No dance was held at the Royal Military Academy last February. I gather my hon. Friend refers to an occasion when, in accordance with long established custom, senior and junior cadets met at the beginning of term in the Academy Gymnasium, and the Junior Cadets went through various gymnastic exercises. The Commandant was himself present. I am advised that
one cadet, who states that he was in bad training, fainted from his gymnastic exertions and one on leaving the gymnasium had the misfortune to fall over a bench and break a small bone in his wrist.

Mr. BALDWIN: Will the right hon. Gentleman listen to further information on that subject privately?

Mr. SHAW: Certainly. If there is anything incorrect in this answer, I will be willing to listen to anything.

Mr. MACQUISTEN: Does the right hon. Gentleman not think it is a bad thing to encourage telling tales out of school?

EDUCATION CORPS.

Viscount WOLMER: 68.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the lack of opportunities of promotion in the Army Education Corps; and whether any reorganisation of the corps is contemplated so as to give better chances of promotion to those who have rendered good service?

Mr. SHAW: The conditions of service in the Army Educational Corps are at present under consideration. If the Noble Lord will repeat his question in a fortnight's time I hope to be able to give him a more definite statement.

CAMPAIGN PENSIONS.

Mr. MARJORIBANKS: 69.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider an alteration of the rules under which campaign pensions are granted, so as to include soldiers who, having been enlisted and having served in our regular forces for the ordinary term of service, during a subsequent voluntary enlistment for war service have received a war medal?

Mr. SHAW: I regret that I am unable to extend the rules in the manner suggested by the hon. Member.

Mr. MARJORIBANKS: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman yhether he is aware of the case of one David Shoesmith, who, having served 12 years on a regular engagement, and having subsequently served—

Mr. SPEAKER: That question should be put down.

ARMISTICE DAY (CENOTAPH SERVICE).

Sir G. BOWYER: 70.
asked the Secretary of State for War by how much the representation of the Army at the Cenotaph Service on Armistice Day is going to be cut down?

Mr. SHAW: The number of officers and other ranks of the Army on parade at the Cenotaph Service on Armistice Day this year will be approximately 350 less than last year. The total number of members of the Forces will be approximately 630, of which roughly 50 per cent. will belong to the Army.

Sir LAMING WORTHINGTON-EVANS: Do these figures include the Territorial Army?

Mr. SHAW: Yes, Sir. The actual figures will be: Royal Navy and Marines, 180; Army, including Territorials, 330; Royal Air Force, 100; Merchant Navy, 20.

WOOLWICH ARSENAL (JUVENILE EMPLOYMENT).

Mr. KELLY: 71.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office the number of boys employed on explosive work at Woolwich Arsenal?

The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Shinwell): The number of male employés under 21 years of age engaged on explosives work at War Department establishments at the Royal Arsenal is approximately 280, but included in this number are various employés engaged on such work as the weighing, gauging and packing of completed small arms cartridges.

Mr. KELLY: In view of the danger of this work and of boys being employed in the danger area, will the War Office consider giving this work to adult labour?

Mr. SHINWELL: We have no reason to assume that the rate of casualties among employés in this work is higher than that among the employés in other work.

Mr. KELLY: In view of the danger of handling these explosives, will the Department not get rid of these boys in the Arsenal danger area?

DARTMOOR.

Sir B. PETO: 46.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the contem-
plated creation of china-clay works near the source of the river Dart on Dartmoor and the consequent danger to the natural features of the county, the Government would favour making Dartmoor a national park?

The PRIME MINISTER: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given on Thursday last in reply to a question on this subject.

REPARATIONS AND INTER-ALLIED DEBTS.

Mr. WISE: 48.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the British delegates to the organisation committee of the Bank for International Settlements were appointed by His Majesty's Treasury; and, if not, by whom they were appointed; and what instructions have been given to them by His Majesty's Government?

Mr. SNOWDEN: In accordance with the provisions of the Young Plan, the British members of the Organisation Committee of the Bank for International Settlements were appointed by the Governor of the Bank of England. No instructions have been given to them by His Majesty's Government in regard to the purely banking aspects of their task but I am keeping in touch with them on the definition of the Bank's functions in regard to reparations. When the Report of the Committee is completed, it will under the Protocol be submitted for consideration by the Governments at the adjourned Hague Conference.

Mr. WISE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the House will be given an opportunity of discussing the proposals before the Government are committed to them?

Mr. SNOWDEN: I cannot say that, but I should think that it is very unlikely that an opportunity can be given before the meeting of the adjourned Hague Conference.

Captain CAZALET: 50.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, if the Hague proposals are ratified, the total amount of money to be received by this country from reparations and war debts will equal the amount which this country has to pay to the United States of
America in 1932 and successive years; and what excess sum, if any, it is expected may accrue yearly to the British Treasury?

Mr. SNOWDEN: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the questions put by the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Eemer) on Thursday last.

FISHING INDUSTRY (HARBOUR DEBTS).

Major Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR: 51.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is yet in a position to state the intentions of the Government regarding the remission or suspension, which was promised in the last Budget, of fishery harbour debts to the Exchequer; and what is the amount of the debt which it is proposed to remit under the Budget proposals in the case of each fishery harbour in Scotland?

Mr. SNOWDEN: The Development Commissioners have now recommended certain concessions to a number of fishery harbours. As their proposals necessarily deal in some detail with the complicated financial circumstances of each harbour, it is not possible at the present stage to summarise them within the compass of an answer to a question in the House, but the harbour authorities will be notified of the proposals in detail at an early date.

Mr. BOOTHBY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether his answer embraces only loans made by the Development Commissioners, or also includes remission of debts due to the Public Works Loan Board?

Mr. SNOWDEN: I am afraid I cannot, without notice.

Sir A. SINCLAIR: Can we have the information covering all the harbours in some comprehensive form? Would it not be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT, or to give us a White Paper which could be placed in the Library?

Mr. SNOWDEN: If the hon. and gallant Member will put down a question later, I will see if fuller information can be supplied.

Mr. DUNCAN MILLAR: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when notification will be given to the harbour authorities?

Mr. SNOWDEN: As soon as possible.

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONAL FINANCE.

IMPORT DUTIES.

Mr. HANNON: 52.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total revenue received from the Safeguarding Duties, the McKenna Duties and the Silk Duties during the six months ended 30th September, 1929?

Mr. SNOWDEN: The approximate net receipts from the Safeguarding, McKenna and Silk Duties during the six months ended 30th September, 1929, were £6,484,000.

Mr. HANNON: Having regard to the intense anxiety of the Chancellor in relation to public finance, will he tell the House whether, in view of these figures, he is still prepared to carry out the policy he announced to the House recently?

Mr. SNOWDEN: I am sorry to have to ask the hon. Member to restrain his impatience for the next six months.

ESTATE DUTIES (INSURANCE).

Sir WILLIAM DAVISON: 58.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider as to the insertion of a Clause in his forthcoming Budget to enable an individual taxpayer to take out an insurance policy in the name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to provide for the payment of the Death Duties which will eventually be payable on his estate without having the amount of such insurance added on to such estate whereby additional Death Duties to the extent of the amount of the insurance would be payable?

Mr. SNOWDEN: The hon. Member's suggestion is one which I cannot see my way to adopt.

Sir W. DAVISON: Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise the serious hardship caused to individuals by the payment of these heavy Death Duties, generally resulting in unemployment, and does he not think it desirable that the ordinary individual should be able to
cover this by insurance in the ordinary way without being penalised for so doing?

Mr. SNOWDEN: The hon. Member's opinions do not arise out of this question, but I may say that the hon. Member has raised this particular question before. I have been going into the matter this morning, and I find that not only would the difficulties of administration be very great, but it would be a very expensive proceeding for the Treasury to adopt.

BOOKMAKERS' CERTIFICATES.

Mr. TOOLE: 54.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if it is proposed to continue the issue of bookmakers' licences for the year commencing 1st November, 1929?

Mr. SNOWDEN: The requirement of bookmakers' certificates and entry certificates, which was enacted during the lifetime of the late Government, still remains on the Statute Book and can only be removed by Act of Parliament. It must therefore be complied with. The matter will be considered with other revenue matters in connection with my Budget statement.

MOTOR TAXATION.

Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: 56.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been called to the burden on the users and manufacturers of motor cars of the high taxation on horse-power both of commercial and private vehicles; and if he will consider a reduction?

Mr. SNOWDEN: I will note the suggestion made by the hon. and gallant Member.

Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: Will the right hon. Gentleman perhaps refer it to one of the Committees which have been set up?

POLICE DISABLEMENT PENSIONS (INOOME-TAX).

Captain BALFOUR: 57.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if in view of the fact that naval and military war disablement pensions are exempt from taxation, he will consider extending this
exemption to police pensions granted for disablement from injury incurred during the execution of their duty?

Mr. SNOWDEN: I regret that I do not see my way to propose legislation extending this relief to any further classes of persons whether in Crown or private employment.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS.

Mr. MACPHERSON: May I ask for your guidance, Mr. Speaker. There are 21 questions on the Order Paper dealing with Scottish affairs, and only one question has been asked. It was understood at the beginning of this Session that some arrangement would be made by means of which Scottish questions would be reached. That arrangement has not been carried out, and I would ask your guidance on what steps Scottish Members should take to have a legitimate share of the Order Paper on a fixed day of the week?

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: May I respectfully point out that certain of the questions already asked were put by Scottish Members, and that Scottish Members try to have it both ways.

Mr. MACLEAN: When a protest was made from these benches and the benches on the other side earlier in the Session with regard to the Ministry of Labour and the Scottish Office, we understood that the matter would be put right. Only one day is alloted for Scottish Members to ask Scottish questions, and to-day Scottish Members have had no opportunity of asking questions relating to Scottish affairs. With regard to the statement of the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy), Scottish Members are sent here, not only to represent Scotland, as we are often told, but the whole country.

Sir JOHN GILMOUR: I trust that the Government may be able to find some solution of this problem. I can only say that during the last four years, when we had charge of the Office, we we're able always to reach our questions, and I see no reason why the arrangement should not be continued.

Mr. R. MORRISON: Is not the real solution to lessen the number of supplementary questions?

Mr. SPEAKER: If there be any real grievance on this question, I shall be only too glad to look into it and to endeavour, with the assistance of the Departments, to come to some arrangement which will prove more satisfactory. Hon. Members, however, must remember that to-day is an unfortunate one, as there are 35 questions down to the Board of Trade. This is an unusually large number and they have taken a long time. I must also remind hon. Members that if they ask so many supplementary questions, we cannot get beyond a certain number on the Paper, and those who come later must obviously suffer.

Sir W. DAVISON: Will you, Mr. Speaker, also take into consideration the desirability of giving an additional quarter of an hour to questions, so that public business can start at 4 o'clock, and so that a full hour can be given to questions to Ministers.

Mr. MACLEAN: With due deference to your statement, Mr. Speaker, is it not the case that during the last four years questions directed to the Secretary for Scotland occupied an earlier part in the Order Paper, and if that particular position had been held, every Scottish question could have been answered today?

Mr. SPEAKER: When I made my original reply to the point of Order I said that I would look into this question, and that if any fresh arrangement could be made which would be more satisfactory I should be glad to see it carried out.

Mr. VAUGHAN: As a new Member may I ask whether it would not be possible for questions to be taken at 10 o'clock in the evening?

Mr. SPEAKER: I fancy that the time allotted and the hour at which they are taken are approved of by the great majority of the Members of the House.

EMPIRE SETTLEMENT BILL,

"to amend the Empire Settlement Act, 1922, and for other purposes connected with settlement and migration within the Empire," presented by, Mr. Annesley Somerville; supported by Mr. Wardlaw-Milne, Major Sir Archibald Sinclair, Sir
Joseph Lamb, Captain Eden, Mr. Wells, and Mr. Tinne; to be read a Second time upon Friday, and to be printed. [Bill 58.]

CHAIRMEN'S PANEL,

Mr. Frederick Hall reported from the Chairmen's Panel; That they had come to the following Resolutions, which they had directed him to report to the House:
That any Member of the Chairmen's Panel may and is hereby empowered to ask any other Member of the Chairmen's Panel to take his place temporarily in case of necessity.
That, in the absence of the Chairman of the Chairmen's Panel, the Panel may be convened at the request of any two Members of the Panel.
That where, on two successive sittings of a Standing Committee called for the consideration of a particular Bill, the Committee has to be adjourned by reason of the absence of a quorum within the first twenty minutes of the time for which the said Committee was summoned, the Chairman do instruct the Clerk to place the particular Bill at the bottom of the list of Bills then waiting consideration of that Committee, and that the Committee shall forthwith be convened to consider the other Bill or Bills then waiting.
That it is the undoubted and established right of the Chairman who is appointed to a Standing Committee for the consideration of a particular Bill to name the day and hour on which the consideration of the Bill shall begin.

Mr. Frederick Hall further reported from the Chairmen's Panel; That they had appointed Mr. Cecil Wilson to act as Chairman of Standing Committee A (in respect of the Arbitration (Foreign Awards) Bill [Lords]), and Sir Hugh O'Neill (in respect of the Coast Protection Bill).

Reports to lie upon the Table.

PRIME MINISTER'S VISIT TO UNITED STATES AND CANADA.

The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): I beg to move, "That this House doth now adjourn."
I do this in order that I may have an opportunity of reporting to the House upon the visit I recently made to the United States and Canada. Any statement that can be made regarding that visit can add little to what has already appeared in the Press, but by reporting to this House and thanking my hosts from this place I perform an official duty which is required at the close of my journey. What success the visit had was largely owing to the hearty support given to it by all parties and sections in this country, and by all the great organs of public opinion. I went out not as a Party leader but as a national representative. I must take this opportunity of thanking President Hoover and his Cabinet, and both the Senate and the House of Representatives, for the welcome they gave me, and the honours they paid to me as the representative of this country. They showed the best kind of friendship by the candour with which they exchanged views and the straightforwardness with which they raised and discussed questions of delicacy; though some of the matters I had to deal with might easily have been presented to the public so as to rouse old prejudices, from beginning to end I found nothing but thoughtful fairness and a desire to co-operate in placing facts and issues justly before the country.
No Ambassador could receive a warmer welcome; no Government or people could open their doors, their minds and their hearts wider to a guest. I did my best as I crossed their boundary to express my thanks to them, but I feel that it is here in the House of Commons, in your presence and with you joining in, that my final grateful adieux should be waved to them. I took with me a staff limited with great severity by the soundest Treasury traditions. Frequently I had to regret this regard for public economy, for at times my colleagues were grossly overworked. By their devotion to the work on hand they contributed much to its success, and it is due to them that I should from this place acknowledge the debt which the nation owes to them.
I went with no draft agreements either in my mind or in my pocket. I went to try by personal contact and by direct address to establish a new relationship between the two peoples, a relationship based upon mutual understanding not only of common objects to be pursued but of natural differences to be respected. I must leave the result to fructify in policy and action as time goes on. The genial breeze which blew me across the Atlantic was created by the conversations I had had during the summer with the American Ambassador, who personifies in such a delightful way the downright desire of his Government for peace and goodwill. These conversations had already removed every fear that at an international conference the unabridged differences between the United States and ourselves would doom such a conference to failure. I reviewed these conversations with the President, and studied with him ways and means of filling in the narrow gaps still remaining in a programme of building which would at the same time recognise parity in strength and variety in the use of tonnage. Both of us recognise, however, that the agreement we were seeking was not merely one between ourselves but one which would have to be set into a wider co-operation, and that final settlements would have to depend upon the Five Powers Conference, invitations to which, we learned during our deliberations, had been accepted by all the Powers concerned.
These Powers will very properly have a good deal to say from their own point of view upon the naval problems which we were discussing. We decided to urge that preliminary, and more or less informal, conversations between and with these Powers should be entered upon so that when the Conference meets the difficulties which lie at any rate on the fringe of our task may have been overcome. The success of that Conference which will meet here in January is our next task and meanwhile I can say nothing which will put difficulties in its way. Above and beyond the definite subject of a naval agreement was a desire to make it clear to everybody that in our mutual relations the Paris Pact of Peace was a reality and so in the joint statement issued by us a declaration is made for the first time officially by the represent-
tives of the two nations speaking together. Both of us put our signatures to this:
Both our governments resolve to accept the Peace Pact not only as a declaration of good intentions but as a positive obligation to direct national policy in accordance with its pledge.
Further, and I quote again—
Therefore, in a new and reinforced sense, the two governments not only declare that war between them is unthinkable, but that distrust and suspicions arising from doubts and fears which may have been justified before the Peace Pact must now cease to influence national policy. We approach old historical problems from a new angle and in a new atmosphere. On the assumption that war between us is banished, and that conflicts between our military or naval forces cannot take place, these problems have changed their meaning and character, and their solution, in ways satisfactory to both countries, has become possible.
4.0 p.m.
The United States pursues with vigilant jealousy its historic policy of keeping free from old world entanglements and is therefore not in the League of Nations. We are in the League, we have contracted obligations to the League; and we shall remain loyal to these obligations. On neither side was any attempt made to change these facts. They were recognised as axioms in all our discussions. They were stated in the Memorandum which we jointly gave to the Press. In the course of our conversations the President raised some of the major historical causes of difference between us, like belligerent rights, so called fortified bases, and so on, which are still active in forming public opinion, and we agreed mutually to examine them in the hope that we might arrive at understandings upon them. Even should one hold the opinion, as I do, that the only satisfactory way to settle legal and other disputes which arise from war conditions is success in the establishment of peace, I believe that nothing but good could come from a frank exchange of views between the Government of the United States and ourselves on these questions. The visit to Canada was marked by the same unstinted demonstrations of welcome and by a hospitality which struck the note of pride and happiness in our family unity. As the representative of
the Mother Country and the bearer of a message of God-speed from His Majesty, I was accorded greetings not only by Canadian lips but by Canadian hearts. My memory of Canada is heavily laden with an appreciation of the welcome by the Prime Ministers and Governments of the Dominion and of the two Provinces I was able to visit. The visit gave me an opportunity of discussing with the Prime Minister, Mr. Mackenzie King, those matters which had arisen at Washington of special interest for Canada, and to exchange with him views on political and economic subjects of mutual concern. The conversations could only be provisional.
The change of Government in Australia made a final agreement as to the assembling of the Economic Conference impossible, and until the Committee of Experts now sitting upon the legal relationship of the Empire, as affected by the Resolution passed by the last Imperial Conference, has reported we could only agree that the results may be of the most vital interest not only to the Empire but to the whole world, and that whatever is done a unity of allegiance and spirit must be preserved with a development of nationality. Meetings with the Premiers of both Ontario and Quebec were most profitable. I am convinced, as the result of the cordial welcome I received in Canada, that if only time can be found, amidst the labours of the office of the Prime Minister, no greater service could be done to our unity and cooperation with the Dominions than similar visits to, and personal contacts with, people of the other parts of the Commonwealth and their Governments.

Commander BELLAIRS: While congratulating warmly the Prime Minister, may I ask him whether the Conference to which he referred is to be held here in London?

The PRIME MINISTER: Yes, in London.

Mr. STANLEY BALDWIN: It is my most agreeable task, on behalf of those who sit behind me, to offer our warm and cordial felicitations to the Prime Minister on the statement which he has just read. We followed his course with the keenest interest, and I, not following my usual custom, did read everything that he said in the United States
of America. I wish to record any view that throughout the Prime Minister acted as the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and not as a Party leader. We all owe him a great debt of gratitude for maintaining that attitude in that country. I might be excused if I offer one or two observations. I have—it is no secret to the right hon. Gentleman—for a. long time felt that our relations with America have suffered in comparison with our relations on the Continent of Europe, from the fact that since the inauguration of the League of Nations statesmen of different countries have been able to meet and discuss matters personally, whereas there has been an almost complete ignorance of the personalities of the statesmen involved on the two sides of the Atlantic. Worse than that, there has always been, and I regret to say it, even amongst some of our public men a profound ignorance of the nature of the constitution, the executive and the administration of the United States of America, which at any time might lead this country, as at times it has led Europe, into difficulties in dealings with America.
So strongly impressed was I with this, that it is now nearly three years ago that I opened the subject very privately with Mr. Houghton, the then Ambassador of the United States, on the subject of the Prime Minister going from this country to America. We both felt that it would be an admirable thing, but we both felt that it would be some time before the time would he ripe and opportune. I say with full conviction of knowledge—I am sure the Prime Minister and the American Government will agree—that the right hon. Gentleman has taken the first moment that has been possible in recent years to make his visit. It could not have been done by any Government until the actual time that he went. I shall not disguise from the House, and the House perhaps will feel that it is not wrong for me to say so, that though I am not greedy of power, there was one thing I always hoped to do, and that was to go to America as Prime Minister to try personally to improve the relationship between that country and this. It looked at one time as though it might be my fate; but it was ordered otherwise. I want to tell the right hon. Gentleman and the whole
House that there is no feeling of regret or envy or anything of that kind in my heart. I rejoice that it has been done. I am happy to think that it has fallen to the lot of the right hon. Gentleman to do it, and I hope it will not be the last time that such a visit will be paid by the Prime Minister of this country to America.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I should like to join with the Leader of the Opposition in extending my felicitations and congratulations to the Prime Minister upon his very triumphant tour in America. It was an unquestionable success from every point of view. When the American public are in a welcoming mood there is no public in the world who can do it with greater sincerity, warmth and spontaneity, and there is no doubt that the Prime Minister found them in that mood, and that he justified the mood in which he originally found them by his experience there. It is very gratifying to us that such a welcome should have been given to the Prime Minister of this country by the greatest English-speaking community in the world except our own. One is glad to acknowledge that it was not merely to the Prime Minister of Great Britain that this enthusiastic reception was accorded, but that it was also the appeal that the personality of the Prime Minister himself made to that great democratic people. There was, as the Leader of the Opposition has said, an unmistakable coolness, to use no stronger phrase, which had crept into the attitude of these two great peoples towards each other. This is not the time to examine the causes; one is anxious to avoid anything which could suggest controversial matters. But undoubtedly there it was, and that was a very serious impediment in the cause of understanding, because pacts and covenants depend not upon paper, but upon the spirit in which they are operating, and unless there is real good will between nations and amongst nations, then all the pacts for the abolition of war will be mere scraps of paper.
From that point of view I think the. Prime Minister has rendered a real service to the cause of world peace by clearing the atmosphere and by introducing a. more genial element into the relations of the two countries. I say that all the more gladly, and I feel I ought to say it,
because I have had very grave doubts, which I expressed in this House, as to the wisdom of a visit to America before the Five Power Conference. Therefore, having made that statement, I am all the more glad to congratulate the Prime Minister upon the real triumph of his visit. I would wish—and I am sure the Prime Minister will not think it a criticism—that he could have given us some account, that he could have told us more of the concrete results of his visit, and of the commitments, if there are any, which he made when he was there. For instance, was any understanding arrived at between this country and America with a view to the Five Power Conference—I do not see why that should interfere with the Five Power Conference—any understanding, so far as the two countries are concerned, with regard to the number of cruisers, with regard to the size of guns, with regard to submarines, and more particularly with regard to what is very vital to this country—a matter that I will not discuss but a matter to which I attach very considerable importance, and that is what is known as the question of the freedom of the seas?
Until we are in a better position in reference to world armaments I think we ought to proceed very cautiously with regard to abandoning any of our rights there. I should like to know from the right hon. Gentleman. It is a very vital matter. [Interruption.] I do not think I have said anything which ought to provoke hon. Gentlemen opposite. I have been studiedly conciliatory throughout my observations, and I am entitled to ask these questions; what is more I mean to do it. It is a very vital matter and I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman. I understand from him that up to the present nothing has been done, except to enter into conversations with the President of the United States which have not committed us to any particular position. The matter is to be further examined?

The PRIME MINISTER: indicated assent.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Then there is nothing more that the Prime Minister can say on that subject, and I do not press it. I am very glad to hear that there is no commitment at the present moment. It is very important. I would
also ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has had any discussions with regard to co-operation between the United States and ourselves on the subject of general disarmament. For instance with regard to Lord Robert Cecil's Motion at Geneva. Lastly, I should also like to ask whether there was any examination of the question of debts, a very important matter for this country—whether there was any attempt to give us what I would call more-favoured-nation treatment in respect of debts, or whether that was left outside the ambit altogether of the conversations between the Prime Minister and the United States. I am pressing him only upon these two or three questions before I sit down.

Colonel GRETTON: I hope the House will allow me to express my congratulations to the Prime Minister upon the personal success of his visit to America. I understand that the Prime Minister is not prepared to discuss in the House on this occasion the business side of his visit, but may I ask if it is the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to make a statement of the Government's position before they enter into the Five-Power Conference. The country is deeply interested in these vital questions, and I have always understood that it is an axiom of the present Government that they would not enter into secret diplomacy. I would also like to ask if it is intended that the report of the Committee referred to by the Prime Minister to inquire into the legal position of the British Empire will be published, because that is a matter of vital interest to all of us.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I would like to make one observation in regard to the questions which have been put to the Prime Minister by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George). Having regard to the part which the right hon. Gentleman has played in international affairs, I think the speech which he has made and the questions he has asked are, in the circumstances, only mischievous. It is well known that the five-Power Conference has been called, and it is obvious that the whole success of that Conference will be jeopardised if the Prime Minister goes into any details.

Mr. J. JONES: Now that a well-known authority on this subject has spoken we
know all about it. There is one thing which hon. Members opposite ought to know, and it is that you cannot make satisfactory international relationships possible until you have entered into negotiations with the people with whom you have had differences. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bass—

Mr. WOMERSLEY: On a point of Order. I would like to ask whether it is in order for an hon. Member of this House to refer to another hon. Member other than by his constituency?

Mr. JONES: Mr. Speaker, I apologise.

Mr. SPEAKER: It is certainly not in order.

HON. MEMBERS: Withdraw!

Mr. JONES: I have already withdrawn, but you cannot separate Bass from Burton. Hon. Members have been speaking of what is going to happen as if it had actually happened. I understand from what I have read on this question that before any agreements are come to by the five-Power Conference the whole question will be referred to this House for ratification. So far as hon. Members who sit on the Labour Benches are concerned, we want the Prime Minister to understand, that we are all behind him in the efforts which he is making to secure international peace. We know the Prime Minister by his past, and he can live upon his past and look forward to the future. There are others in this House who cannot do that.

Mr. WOMERSLEY: Speak for yourself.

Mr. JONES: I can speak of my past, and it is well behind me. We stand behind the Prime Minister in the efforts he is making to secure European and international peace.

Viscountess ASTOR: May I congratulate the Prime Minister upon the great success of his visit to America, and I can assure him that all the sober elements of the country are behind him.

Mr. SCRYMGEOUR: I only desire to express my satisfaction in regard to the most important deliverances which have just been signed by the Prime Minister of our own country as well as by the President of the United States of America. I think it will be our earnest prayer, individually and collectively, that those words will not only have their meaning in a verbal sense, but that they
will be taken as evidence of a determination on the part of the political parties of this country to see that nothing shall be done to endanger in any way in the future the lives of our fellow countrymen and the sisterhood and childhood of the nation. This is a great day, and we certainly say "God speed" to all who are supporting such a magnificent Christian enterprise.

The PRIME MINISTER: I hope the House will grant me indulgence for a moment so that the questions which have been put to me may not remain unanswered. First of all, I would like to thank hon. Members for the reception which they have given to my statement. The thing in my mind most of all is how deeply gratified my late host will be when he reads the proceedings in this House to-day. The statement about cruisers was made before we left and I did not think that I needed to repeat it. As regards the question of belligerent rights, no commitments whatever were made beyond a promise that the matter would be considered. I knew that it had been considered already, because I had seen the papers on the subject, and I was fortified in the knowledge that I was pursuing a continuous policy.
As to general disarmament, I certainly did not raise the question as to what support America might give us at the general Disarmament Conference. We are preparing for the five-Power Conference which is naval pure and simple, and, when we have got the five-Power Conference out of the way, then will be the time for the consideration of the question of general disarmament. I believe that the five-Power Conference which is being called for a specific purpose will get this matter successfully concluded. We did not discuss debts. As to the five-Power Conference and the attitude of the Government, all I can say is that everything that is done by way of preparation for that Conference will be done after full consultation with our proper experts, and it would be very improper for me at this moment to say anything further than that. Everything that is being done by way of preparation for that Conference is being done in the usual way, and all the interests concerned are being consulted. I beg to ask leave to withdrawn the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

RELATIONS WITH RUSSIA.

The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Arthur Henderson): I beg to move,
That this House is of the opinion that the resumption of full diplomatic relations between this country and Russia is desirable, and approves the procedure for the settlement of questions outstanding between the two countries, including those relating to propaganda and debts, as set out in the Protocol of 3rd October, 1929, and published in Command Paper 3418.
In initiating this Debate I make this submission to the House, that no part of the policy of this Government has been so much misrepresented or made the subject of so many misconceptions as that which deals with Anglo-Russian relations. Charges of breaches of faith, of repudiation of pledges, and breaches of trust have been freely made, and the Foreign Secretary, so the public are assured, has been guilty of a hideous humiliation and a miserable, ignoble, and abject surrender. Members and ex-members of the party opposite have been vying with each other in their criticisms of the Government's Russian policy, and I should like to give the House instances of the informing statements that have been put into circulation. The hon. and gallant Member for Chippenham (Captain Cazalet), writing in order to enlighten the readers of the "Morning Post," said this:
Whatever 'kudos' the Socialist party have derived by their conduct at The Hague has been completely offset by the obvious lack of backbone, courage and conviction displayed by their leaders over this question.
Then the Financial Secretary to the War Office in the late Government, addressing an audience, said:
Mr. Henderson falls flat upon his face and licks the dust from the boots of the Russian gentlemen without getting anything in return. I am awaiting with interest the kind of explanation that Mr. MacDonald will give on his return for the latest development in foreign affairs, and I should imagine that Mr. Henderson is also awaiting that return with no little trepidation.
The astonishing thing in connection with all these statements, and I want to impress this point upon the House, is that they are based on Russian propaganda—propaganda that is so objectionable and yet so useful when a charge has to be made against the present Government. They are a consequence of
Russian representatives and of Russian newspapers serving up descriptions of the negotiations for home consumption. One of the points freely made, at the time when we resumed our negotiations on procedure in September, was that the Soviet Government's position remained absolutely unchanged. Because in the Russian propaganda it had been said that the Soviet Government's position remained absolutely unchanged, it must be assumed that the Foreign Secretary had surrendered.
May I briefly state the facts? When we first of all opened our conversations on procedure at the end of July, the Soviet representative made it plain that, in the opinion of his Government at any rate, the first point of procedure to foe settled was the immediate exchange of ambassadors. That was the very first point upon which he insisted. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am glad that my friends opposite say "Hear, hear." What was my reply? I replied that, in view of the Government's commitment to this House, there could be no exchange of ambassadors until a report had been made to Parliament after the House reassembled in October. M. Dovgalevski then intimated that it was necessary for him to consult his Government on this point. After doing so, he came to see me again, and he intimated to me that his instructions were to return to Paris, which he did on the 1st August. Moreover, throughout the whole of the negotiations—and I want to make this clear to the House—M. Dovgalevski stated that his Government was unwilling to negotiate any question, including that of propaganda, until the ambassadors had been exchanged and had taken up their duties. The House knows that ambassadors have not yet been appointed, and the House knows, from the issue of the Command Paper, that an arrangement has already been made on the question of propaganda. Surely, these two last statements which I have made to the House show what a small amount of substance was contained in the charges which have been so freely made about this humiliating surrender to which I have referred.
I would also point out, before I go further, that the Amendment standing on the Order Paper in the names of right hon. Gentlemen opposite seems to me—I will deal with it more fully later—to
represent a similar attitude of mind to that to which I have already referred, and I welcome, in view of its character, this opportunity of responding to the challenge.
May I first deal with the Motion standing in my name? That Motion, I may remind the House, declares in favour of the desirability of resuming diplomatic relations; and, in support of the Motion, I would venture to call the attention of the House to the fact that for more than 10 years organised labour in this country has fearlessly, consistently and definitely urged the importance of proper relations with the Russian Government. Moreover, in the last Parliament, Labour, then the official Opposition, protested most emphatically and strenuously against the fruitless and futile policy of rupture with Russia, believing that it would have serious economic consequences and would be a wanton act of self-injury to British trade. I also claim that proper Russian relations were a very outstanding issue at the recent General Election; I do not think that that can possibly be disputed. The result is that this Parliament has a large majority, in my opinion, who are definitely pledged on this Russian issue. In order to emphasise that point, I should like to quote—I know that right hon. Gentlemen opposite are very anxious that we should strongly adhere to our election pledges, and, in order that there need be no doubt on this point, I want to quote, first of all, from the Labour party's election's statement, which said:
A Labour Government, whilst opposed to the interference of the Russian Government with the domestic politics of other nations, would at once take 6teps to establish relations and … settle by treaty or otherwise any outstanding differences, and would make every effort to encourage a revival of trade with Soviet Russia.
But that was not the only election statement that was made. May I now quote from the statement issued over the signature of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) and, I believe, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H Samuel):
The policy of the Liberal party is to re-establish normal political and economic relations with Russia at the earliest possible date, on the basis of the non-interference of each country in the domestic affairs of the other.
I claim that these two quotations show very clearly the General Election position of both the Government party and the Liberal party I now want to advance very briefly one or two general reasons in support of an immediate return to normal relations with Russia. Doubtless we shall hear during this Debate that many Britishers distrust the Soviet Government, and, on the other hand, I would say that the Soviet Government are very suspicious of British policy. They have their apprehensions of our alleged anti-Soviet activities; some of them even believe to-day in an eventual armed attack. However fantastic these apprehensions may appear to us, they seem to many Russians to be absolutely genuine. Moreover, I would point out that the younger sections of the Russian population are it is well known, coming more and more to regard England as the enemy. Surely, then, a continuance of the present state of affairs can only encourage the growth of this unfortunate opinion.
Take the question of trade, so vital and important at this juncture, as we heard yesterday. It is true, I admit, that the Soviet Union can buy here without the existence of diplomatic relations. It is true also that the Soviet Union continues to buy in the United States—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am quite prepared to make these admissions. But it is equally true that Russia has very largely reduced her purchases in this country since relations were broken off. The exports of British produce and manufactures were, in 1925, £6,240,000, and, in 1926, £5,858,000, a figure which fell in 1928 to £2,716,000. The fall in our re-exports is even more striking. In 1925, these were £13,017,000, in 1926, £8,543,000, and, in 1928, £2,089,000. There can be no doubt that the absence of diplomatic relations does impose a very serious handicap upon our trade. For instance, the recently issued report of a very important trade delegation which visited Russia.—[Interruption]—hon. Members may sneer at the delegation, but that is their responsibility. That report, which I am entitled to quote, indicates that the Committee is satisfied that there is a great volume of business available for Great Britain, subject to diplomatic recognition being afforded. [HON. MEMBERS: "Credits!"] Are hon. Members quoting this statement, or am
I? I have no doubt that some of them would be very anxious to give the credits presently. The report goes on to say—
if arrangements be made for the financing of the business on long-term credit.
[Interruption.] What is wrong with that? I am now going to quote another interesting statement which I think has a very important bearing upon this subject. The City Editor of the "Times" newspaper wrote, on the 23rd July, 1927:
In no small part, the abnormal amount of unemployment in this country is to be attributed to the absence of Russia from the economy and comity of nations… The direct trade may not be important, but the indirect trade is just as important to this country as to those immediately concerned.
Surely, a more cogent justification of Labour's attitude, and of those who support the return to normal conditions towards Russia from the standpoint of Great Britain's trade, has never 'been written. There has been a great deal of misapprehension on one point, and here I want to say very emphatically to the House that the Government do not intend to recommend Parliament to pledge the credit of the British taxpayer to any loan raised by the Soviet Government.
I want to give one more general reason. It is inevitable, so it appears to me, in the case of two countries such as the United Kingdom and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, that questions of many kinds apart from special problems, such as those of propaganda and debts, should continually present themselves for solution. Some of these more important questions are referred to in the Protocol. Those who have followed the Protocol will see references there to fisheries, to commercial relations and to the validity of existing treaties, but minor matters must, of course, continually crop up, as any of us who have had responsibilities in Government Departments know. At present it has to be admitted that all these questions, whether they be of minor or major importance can only be dealt with in a roundabout way and without the opportunity of that personal discussion which is so essential often to an amicable arrangement. Then it should be clearly stated that it is to the advantage of both parties to have at their disposal a universally recognised
machinery for dealing with the ordinary routine of international intercourse. Moreover, the absence of normal relations between the United Kingdom and the Union of Socialist Republics necessarily has a most unsettling effect, not only on the two States concerned, but even upon third parties. It introduces, in fact, those political uncertainties and a sense of political insecurity which the late Foreign Secretary deprecated so strongly in his speech in this House on 25th June, 1926. Furthermore, the fact that the relations between the two countries are difficult, are unsatisfactory if you like, is in no way an argument for abolishing the normal machinery of diplomatic relations, but in my judgment the very reverse.
The second part of the Motion invites the House to give its approval to the procedure that has been adopted in the hope of reaching a friendly and mutually satisfactory settlement of outstanding questions between the two countries. This procedure is set out in the Protocol signed on 3rd October of this year. Under that Protocol the condition of the resumption of relations is the exchange of reciprocal guarantees relative to propaganda. This is provided for in Paragraph 7, which reads:
Immediately on the actual exchange of Ambassadors and not later than the same day as that on which the respective Ambassadors presents their credentials, both Governments will reciprocally confirm the pledge with regard to propaganda contained in Article 16 of the Treaty signed on 8th August, 1924.
Article 16 of the 1924 Treaty read as follows:
The contracting parties solemnly affirm their desire and intention to live in peace and amity with each other, scrupulously to respect the undoubted right of a State to order its own life within its own jurisdiction in its own way, to refrain and to restrain all persons and organisations under their direct or indirect control, including organisations in receipt of any financial assistance from them, from any Act, overt or other, liable in any way whatsoever to endanger the tranquillity or prosperity of any part of the territory of the British Empire or the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics or intended to embitter the relations of the British Empire or the Union with their neighbours or any other countries.

Sir WILLIAM DAVISON: Did they ever keep that?

HON. MEMBERS: Did you?

Mr. HENDERSON: May I say how we interpret the obligations of Article 7 to which I have just referred. Our position with regard to propaganda may be stated thus—this is very important in regard to the questions which have been asked: We stand by the declaration we made in 1924 to the effect that we could not allow any direct interference from outside in British domestic affairs and would insist that the promise given by the Soviet Government to refrain from any act liable to endanger the tranquillity or prosperity of the British Empire, and to restrain from such acts all persons and organisations under their direct or indirect control, including organisations in receipt of any financial assistance from them, such as the Communist International, which is organically connected with the Soviet Government, should be carried out both in the letter and in the spirit. This is, in fact, an undertaking that Soviet propaganda will not be tolerated in any form or at any time.
Having stated our position with regard to Soviet propaganda, I should like to remind the House that this position of ours has been described in the Press by the late Home Secretary as a breach of trust and a broken promise. Let me give you his words:
We are to appoint ambassadors, which means full diplomatic relations, and then we are to discuss all the subjects that are in dispute, including the cessation of propaganda.
I claim, whatever else it may be said we have not provided for before an exchange of ambassadors takes place, it is not on the question of propaganda. As I have shown—and I am convinced of it—the position of His Majesty's Government in this matter has been definitely strengthened by what has taken place since the House rose in July and under the negotiations which I have had the responsibility of conducting. After 1924 it has been plainly stated to the Soviet representatives, and stated again twice by myself, that the Communist International will be regarded by His Majesty's Government as an organ of the Soviet Government. In order to strengthen my case on this point, may I ask the House to note the list of subjects left for settlement by negotiation between the two Governments. The list of subjects which have been reserved for negotiation is as follows:—Definition of
the attitude of both Governments towards the treaties of 1924, commercial treaty and allied questions, claims and counter-claims, inter-governmental and private, debts and claims arising out of intervention and otherwise and financial questions connected with such claims and counter-claims, fisheries, and the application of previous treaties and conventions. In view of what I have said, I want to ask this question. Why, if nothing has been settled, is propaganda not included in the list of subjects yet to be negotiated? The answer is quite simple. Because an agreement has already been reached, and the guarantee must be exchanged not later than the date upon which each of the ambassadors presents his credentials. Hon. Members may say, if they care, that Article 16 is insufficient. They may say it is not drawn sufficiently tight. They may say that as an undertaking it is not quite definite enough. That is an understandable position, but it does not warrant the charges which have been made, especially against myself, of breach of trust or ignoble surrender. Then it must be obvious to everyone that the absence of normal relations does nothing to prevent propaganda, but in my judgment rather facilitates the opportunities for such propaganda.
Another important point on which I should like to say a word is the position of the Dominions. The King's Speech contained an intimation that the Government was in communication with the Governments of the Dominions on the question of the resumption of diplomatic relations with Russia. His Majesty's Governments in the Dominions have all been kept fully informed of the policy proposed, and the replies received indicate that it is generally recognised that the renewal of relations was sooner or later inevitable. Several have emphasised the importance of safeguards against the possibility of subversive propaganda—I claim that we have made provision for it—but not a single Dominion has expressed dissent from the general policy which has been pursued. All the Dominions except one, whose views have not yet been received, have requested that the guarantee against propaganda, the guarantee which I have given to the House to-day should be made applicable to them.
5. 0. p. m.
The official Opposition Amendment is a direct challenge to the Government on two points. It is not very hold. It is, I think, a sort of bridge to enable the more moderate and the diehards to come together. It raises two points. It deplores the failure to maintain the conditions which the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary laid down for the resumption of diplomatic relations, and in the second place it condemns the resumption of such relations until these conditions are satisfied. It is interesting to notice from the Amendment that it is not the Soviet Government which is to-day on its trial; it is not even the British Government on its trial for running away from its election pledges; it is not even the Government on its trial for failing to give effect to the declarations contained in the Gracious Speech from the Throne. If you examine the position there is apparently only one point at issue between the Front Bench opposite and ourselves, and that is the alleged failure—I say advisedly "the alleged failure "—on our part to maintain the conditions laid down last July. I think I have said sufficient to dispose of that charge. I think I have pricked that bubble quite successfully.
Let me put the House in mind of the two conditions which were laid down last July; they seem to have been overlooked. What were those conditions? First the Government declared that an agreement embodying a definite undertaking with regard to propaganda was necessary, and secondly the Government undertook to report to the House before recognition became effective. With all due deference to our friends opposite I claim that both those conditions have been fulfilled. The first has been fulfilled in the restoration of Article 16, and the interpretation which I placed upon that article in the negotiations with Mr. Dovgalevski; and the second condition laid down by the Prime Minister in July is being fulfilled to-day, within a week of the reassembling of Parliament.

Commander BELLAIRS: May I ask whether, as regards the resumption of diplomatic relations, the Soviet has at any time recognised the Communist International as part and parcel of the Soviet Government?

Mr. HENDERSON: I am not at the moment concerned with what they recognise. [HON. MEMBERS: "We are."] We are concerned with our responsibility to carry out what we laid down last July. That is the point with which I am now dealing. The Amendment says that we have failed to maintain those conditions. I claim that we have fully and completely fulfilled those conditions.
I will say only one word, in conclusion. I am content to take the decision of this newly elected House on the Russian policy of the Government. I believe that this House has a very definite mandate for the restoration of diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union. In seeking to give effect to that mandate the Government has honoured the conditions relating to propaganda and other matters. The Government asks the House to declare that it is not prepared to continue a policy of wasted economic opportunities, a policy which is injurious, in our judgment, to British trade, which is a disturbing and even a menacing factor in European affairs, a policy which has failed to produce a single substantial advantage or any worth-while consequence to recommend it to any section of the House. On the other hand the policy which I am inviting the House to support is conceived in the interests of European peace, co-operation and confidence, upon which the prosperity and well-being of the nation so largely depend. In my judgment it is a wise policy, and it is as sound as it is necessary. I therefore leave our action, with all that has been said against us and our policy, to the judgment of the House, in the confident belief that the decision will be to approve what we have done, and to encourage us to go on with the negotiations in the hope of solving the issues still outstanding between the two Governments.

Mr. S. BALDWIN: I beg to move, in line 1, to leave out from the word "House" to the end of the Question; and to add instead thereof the words:
deplores the failure of His Majesty's Government to maintain the conditions which the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary laid down for the resumption of diplomatic relations and condemns the resumption of such relations until these preliminary conditions have been satisfied.
I listened with great interest to the speech made by the Foreign Secretary; and I wonder whether to-day we shall be
able to discuss this subject with more amity than it used to raise in the last Parliament. I remember that in the last Parliament, the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that Government, brave man as he was, when he was going to mention the word "Russia" used to say to the Opposition, "Hold on to your seats, I am going to say 'Russia'," I certainly think that so far as the Foreign Secretary is concerned, since the speeches made in 1924, the present Government has learned something, and I am not without hope that in a few years they may learn something more.
I would assure the Foreign Secretary at the beginning of my observations that I have no intention of charging him with breach of faith, nor have I any intention of charging him with repudiation of pledges. I intend to make good, so far as I can, one charge to which he does not plead guilty, and that is a charge of making a most humiliating surrender. I ask myself—and I propose to make one or two observations later in what I have to say on the subject—what is the secret of the hurry in which the Government are in this matter? I think one reason may possibly be this; they gave a great many pledges at the election, a great many which will never be redeemed in this world or the next, but here they have a pledge which they can redeem if the House of Commons gives them permission. The Prime Minister last April said that relations with Russia were going to be resumed by hook or by crook, and the first opportunity has been taken; and I cannot help thinking that there lingers somewhere in the mind of the Foreign Secretary the recollection that to-day is Guy Fawkes' Day. [An HON. MEMBER: "Who is the guy?"] In the White Paper which was published by the Government, Command Paper 3418, which contains the relevant correspondence, it will be found that in Mr. Dovgalevski's note of 31st July, he refers to
the fact that the British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has stated … that it is impossible for the British Government to re-establish normal relations between the two countries before the solution of the questions outstanding between them,
and he draws an inference which is at the moment neither here nor there. That is confirmed by the Foreign Office communique of the 2nd August, when the
Foreign Secretary said that he was going to work on the subject during the Recess, and
he felt sure that, with good-will on both sides, sufficient progress might be made to enable him on the reassembling of Parliament in October to report what had been achieved, that the principles upon which a settlement could be worked out, had been defined, and to request authority, and even if complete settlement of all outstanding questions had not been reached, for the exchange of fully accredited ambassadors between the two countries.
Of that I have no complaint to make, and if the Government had stood firm upon that point, the Debate in this particular form would not have arisen.
If you come to look at the further statements and communications you will find that a gradual weakening comes along as the Russian representative makes it clear that he has his point of view, which is an opposite point of view to that which had been expressed by the Foreign Secretary of State; and so we go on until we get to the end of September. By the end of September the surrender was very near, because Mr. Dovgalevski's statement as reported in the "Times" of the 25th September, says:
I am glad to state after the statement made to the Press by Mr. Henderson and by Mr. Litvinoff and after the exchange of notes which followed, the misunderstandings which arose during the first stage of negotiations seem to be now cleared up.
That means that the Foreign Office were gradually beginning to take Mr. Dovgalevski's point of view; and we find that on the 1st October, an official statement was issued saying that a long interview had taken place between Mr. Henderson and Mr. Dovgalevski, not at the Foreign Office but in the White Hart at Lewes. It so happens that in old days I used to know the White Hart at Lewes very well, and to those whom it may interest I may say that you get the best of ale there. The White Hart at Lewes was a great resort to which people use to go when playing cricket matches in Sussex, and it occurred to me, if I may use a simile which hon. Members will all understand, that whereas the Foreign Secretary in July was playing with a straight bat very correctly and looked like keeping up his wicket, after lunch at the White Hart with Mr. Dovgalevski he was bowled out.
Immediately after that a final statement was issued declaring that the will of Mr. Dovgalevski had prevailed, and not the will of the British Government. Now between some countries I do not know that that would have mattered very much, but I believe that with Russia it is a very serious matter. The right hon. Gentleman spoke about Russian propaganda which was beneficial to us. I know what he was alluding to—the kind of propaganda which speaks in irreverent terms of the right hon. Gentleman's Government; but I want to call the attention of the House to two or three statements. I must quote them—they are very short—just to tell the House why I think it is a serious matter and a dangerous matter that this surrender should have been made by this particular Government. At week-end meetings held in Leningrad and Moscow after that date, "the rout of the pseudo-labour government by Soviet diplomatists backed by Great Britain's masses" was alluded to, and then there are two newspaper extracts which I will quote; and we must remember that the freedom of the Press in Moscow is very different from what we understand in London.
A victory fraught with colossal revolutionary importance
was the phrase which was used,
And Mr. Henderson surrendered hurriedly, being unable to face the Labour Party Congress at Brighton without having concluded an agreement.
And the "Pravda" said that
to consult Parliament is an astonishing self-abnegation of the power of government.
That would not have mattered twopence if it was written or spoken, as the right hon. Gentleman said, for home consumption, whether that home consumption were in Russia or in Great Britain. But that is the story which will run like wildfire through every bazaar in the East, into China, through Kurdistan and right through India. The right hon. Gentleman the Commissioner of Works shakes his head. He has never been at the Foreign Office. The Foreign Secretary knows the risk of that, as anybody who has been at the Foreign Office knows it perfectly well. I remember very well when few members of the Labour party had much knowledge of this subject that in the time of the Chinese trouble the
Chancellor of the Exchequer himself said in the "Daily News"—I have the quotation with me—
the Soviet representatives have been at the bottom of the anti-British trouble and feeling in China.
I remember very well a deputation coming from the Trade Union Congress not realising in the least what the situation in China was like, fed up with reports, and asking us and believing sincerely that there would be peace and settlement in China if we would make an agreement with a gentleman called Mr. Chen. Where is Mr. Chen now? There is not a man in this House who knows where he is. To make an agreement with Mr. Chen would be like making an agreement with a snowball under a hot sun.
That is the danger of a surrender of this kind to that particular Government at this particular time. It is a real danger and it will make more difficult the task of the Foreign Secretary as time goes on, and he will find it so. I wonder if the situation is at all similar to what it was in August, 1924. There was a sudden change and a sudden surrender then. We all understood that it was due to pressure of a certain kind. It is not for me to inquire into the pressure which may be exercised in other parties. I deal with my own. For the sake of the right hon. Gentleman I hope that the result of that pressure this time may be more favourable to him than it was the last. What is the procedure? We have been told one or two very interesting things. We have been told that immediately on the actual exchange of Ambassadors both Governments will reciprocally affirm the pledge with regard to propaganda contained in Article 16 of the Draft Proposed General Treaty of 1924. The right hon. Gentleman made a very interesting statement. I cannot quite understand from him what the position was from the statement which he read. It has not been published yet; I do not think so. The statement of propaganada is a very strong statement.

Mr. HENDERSON: Nothing has been published except the Memorandum.

Mr. BALDWIN: What about Article 16?

Mr. HENDERSON: Article 16 which I read is taken directly out of the 1924 Treaty.

Mr. BALDWIN: The right hon. Gentleman said something very much stronger about propaganda than appears in Article 16.

Mr. HENDERSON: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to explain. When I read Article 16 I went on to say that the Government's position might be stated thus and that it was our interpretation of Article 16, plus what I had told Mr. Dovgalevski as to our position with regard to the Third International.

Mr. BALDWIN: May I ask if Mr. Dovgalevski agreed with that?

Mr. HENDERSON: Mr. Dovgalevski said that he was going at once to report that to his Government.

Mr. BALDWIN: I may say, in passing, I am very glad that the right hon. Gentleman did put that point, because it it is an extremely interesting point and a very correct one. Nothing could have expressed better the position that any British Government ought to take up than the words of the present Prime Minister in that famous letter, which he sent to Mr. Rakovski, dated 24th October, 1924. I do not propose to read that. It is familiar to the House, and the gist of it is included in the statement which the right hon. Gentleman has made to the House. I may say in passing that I am extremely glad to hear from those benches what has not always been acknowledged by the party as a whole, what I know the Prime Minister when he was Foreign Secretary held, and what has been specifically stated in articles by the Chancellor of the Exchequer—I do not think it can be better expressed than in one sentence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer:
It is idle for the Soviet Government to deny complicity in the hostile propaganda. The Soviet Government, the Communist International and the Russian trade unions are a Trinity, three in one, and one in three. Gradually that truth is permeating this country.
I am always glad for the permeation of truth. I have three specific questions to put. The right hon. Gentleman will, of course, to the best of his ability insist on the guarantee with regard to propaganda being given. What will he do if that guarantee is broken? Will he be prepared to break off negotiations if he finds that propaganda does not stop or will he be prepared to denounce the
agreement if it is reached at a later date and he finds then that propaganda continues? I believe that is an important point from our point of view. I want to know, does the trade agreement come into force automatically on the resumption of diplomatic relations, or is the agreement of 1921 coming into force at all, or will it be superseded by a new Treaty? Does this mean that the work that will be done will be done on the basis of the Draft Proposed General Treaty of 1924? The right hon. Gentleman made a very important statement about loans on which I will say a word in a moment. We want to know if the basis of a new treaty or of a new agreement will be the Draft Proposed General Treaty of 1924? Assuming that that will be the basis, or, at any rate, that all the subjects in that treaty will come under consideration, I should like to know if the Government still adhere to the single and indivisible unity of Articles 6 to 13. Particularly I should like a little information on the question of diplomatic privileges. I do not think any more fatal mistake was ever made than by singling out Russia for exceptional treatment in this regard. No country in the world has ever had, or ever ought to have, such privileges. Diplomatic immunity should be confined strictly to the diplomatic representatives of a country. To include in that members of a trade delegation is stretching altogether too widely the powers which never ought to be given without the gravest consideration. I should like some more information on that. The right hon. Gentleman said, as I understood him, there was no question of guaranteeing the interest or sinking fund of a loan.

Mr. HENDERSON: indicated assent.

Mr. BALDWIN: That is a good thing as far as it goes I should like very much to know what the Government will say if and when they are approached by the Soviet Government and are told that there will be no business without a loan what their answer is going to be. About the payment of debts. Can there be payment of debts without a loan? I should like a little more on that point. I want to make one more observation about the payment of debts. I hope the House will listen to this quite seriously because it is an important point. I know quite well that part of the statement I am going to
make is always received with tremendous cheers from the other side. Whenever the Soviet Government talk to us about money there always comes up the question of claims with regard to our intervention in Russia. I do not want to consider for a moment, and this is not the place, and it does not very much matter how much that intervention, if any, was a continuation of the war or a new intervention. That is all a matter of historical argument and beside the question to-day. It is perfectly possible on that subject, as no estimate can ever be obtained, to name sums that will more than set off the whole of our claims for war debts and private debts. But will the Government remember this—and I have never seen this officially mentioned—there is as big or bigger claim on our side than that. The present Government in Russia are primarily responsible for the breaking of the treaty undertaking that was made between all the Allies at the beginning of the War which engaged the Allies to continue in the War and not to come out without the assent of the others. By breaking that treaty, by Crippling Russia, they added a year to the War. If Russia had stayed in there would have been no Paschendale. The lives that were lost owing to Russia going out of the War can never be computed and can never be replaced. The money which it cost that last year can hardly be computed. If any claims in the air are to be mentioned for intervention they are more than set off in our claims for the breaking of that treaty.
I would not wish to weary the House, and I merely want to draw to a conclusion what I have to easy by coming back once more to the subject on which I began. What is the secret of the affection which the party opposite hold for the Government in Russia? The Russian Government have called the Labour party every name they can lay their tongues to. If I called them half the names you would never listen to me in the House of Commons. You accept gold watches from them. I have tried to get at the bottom of it. I think that part of the secret is the innate conservatism of the Labour party. They started out when the Russian revolution began in believing that the old and evil Tsarist régime had been replaced by a good sound democratic con-
stitution, and they have never got away from that. That is one explanation which I suggest. Another explanation, I think, is that there are many members of the Labour party who really believe that we on this side of the House want to see the Tsarist Government back again That is an illusion. If any hon. Members still believe that—and I know that some hon. Members think that to-day—I should like to disillusion them. The third reason is a very British one. When hon. Members speak in their constituencies, and particularly when they are speaking in the streets rather than in public halls, they use very vigorous language which can be understood by the common people. We do not take their bad language seriously, and they do not really take it seriously themselves. The Russians use serious language, and they mean it, but right hon. and hon. Members opposite think that they do not mean it.
The great difference between hon. Members opposite and ourselves is, firstly, that we would make no engagement on propaganda with the Soviet Government until we had seen for a period of time that they could and would stop propaganda. Secondly, I believe what the Bolsheviks say—the right hon. Gentleman does not—that although there are luke-warm men in it, and the system must crumble, yet those who are still at the head in Moscow believe as urgently and fanatically as ever they did that world revolution is possible. I do not believe that it is, but they believe it, and they say so, and nothing in this world will shift them from it; no more than the fire and the stake shifted the early Christians from their belief. They believe in it absolutely to-day. We may think that they are wrong, we may think that they are wicked, and we may believe many of the things that are said about them, but there can be no doubt that they believe these things and that they are sincere in their belief, and if only the right hon. Gentleman could realise that the Bolsheviks do believe in world revolution he would know that no agreement which he can make with them will be any good.
Whatever agreement they make with a bourgeois Government, the fact remains that over and above that lies the determination to set the fire of revolution, which they will never be able
to do in Western Europe, running right through the East. They are watching India as they watched China, and that is one of the greatest perils in the political circumstances of the East that our Empire is up against. That is the reason why we part company with the Government on this question. We should have to be convinced in practice of the continuance of abstention from propaganda before we would do business with them. We do not believe that it is safe to do it. That attitude on the subject was expressed by the Secretary of State for the United States of America. I agree with every word that Mr. Kellogg said, only in February of last year, in regard to the American position. He said:
In the view of the Government of the United States, a desire and disposition on the part of the present rulers of Russia to comply with the accepted principles governing international relations is an essential prerequisite to the establishment of a sound basis of intercourse between the two countries. A clear and unequivocal recognition of the sanctity of international obligations is of vital importance, not only as concerns the development of relations between the United States and Russia, but as regards peaceful and harmonious development of relations between nations. No result beneficial to the people of the United States or, indeed, to the people of Russia would be attained by entering into relations with the present regime in Russia so long as the present rulers of Russia have not abandoned those avowed aims and known practices which are inconsistent with international friendship.
That sums up tersely and accurately our attitude, and for that reason I move my Amendment.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I rise to support the Motion which has been moved by the Foreign Secretary, and I desire very briefly to summarise my reasons. The speech of the Foreign Secretary so powerfully presented the case that very little is needed to be added by me. I was head of the Government which initiated the first Trade Agreement with Russia. The present leader of the Opposition and the late Foreign Secretary were also Members of that Government. I took a prominent part in the negotiations. I also supported the Government of 1924 when they carried the matter a step further. I took a part in this House in opposing the action of the late Government in breaking off relations with Russia. I am firmly convinced that it
was not a deliberate act on their part. Really, they were rushed into it by the blunder of one of their own Ministers. It was not a well-thought-out considered matter. It ought to have been done very much more carefully and very much more cautiously, if it had to be done at all. It was done as a matter of police and not as a matter of policy.
To break off relations with one of the greatest countries in the world, whether revolutionary or not, required very much greater care and thoroughness of deliberation than the late Foreign Secretary had an opportunity of giving to it. It was not rushed by the Foreign Office but by the Home Office. It was a mistake. I quite agreed with the Foreign Secretary on that occasion that there had been undoubted breaches of the Agreement. The same thing occurred during the time that I was Prime Minister. I fully admit, there was no doubt about it, that some of the breaches were very flagrant. I agree that the case made out by the late Foreign Secretary about breaches of the Agreement was established, but what I was doubtful about was, having regard to the fact that we were dealing with a revolutionary Government, whether we ought not to have exercised more caution and whether we ought not to have taken a little more time.
Let us see what the position is to-day. The right hon. Gentleman asks why do hon. Members on the Government side want to resume relations with Russia? Is it because of any affection for them? There is not a country in Europe except ours—I am not sure about Bulgaria—that has not relations with Russia. Is it because of their affection for Russia? Is it because they have any sympathy with revolution? Is it not because they are just as well aware as the right hon. Gentleman is that there is propaganda going on, and propaganda going even in their own countries? There was a very notorious case in France, quite recently, but France has never perpetrated the folly of injuring themselves by breaking off relations with Russia. The United States of America have not resumed relations with Russia, but the United States can afford to do a great many things that poor Europe cannot do. They are pretty well off, they are very rich. They are in an overwhelming position, with the gold of Europe in their pockets.
We have 1,200,000 people out of work. Our export trade is down 20 per cent., as the right hon. Member for St. George's (Sir L. Worthington-Evans) said yesterday. We cannot afford to throw away trade running into millions of pounds of exports and re-exports in this country. We are injuring ourselves, and for what return and what reason? Because there is propaganda in this country. What does it come to? When I was Prime Minister I used to get, and so does every Prime Minister, all sorts of reports about secret organisations and secret societies. If you really were to concentrate upon these documents you might imagine that there was going to be a revolution within the next twenty-four hours. I used to throw all of them into the wastepaper basket because I knew there was nothing in them.
What has happened in this country? We had a test of the power of Russian propaganda in the last election. How many Communist candidates were there, and how many of them escaped the forfeiture of their deposit? There is no country in the world, with the possible exception of the United States of America, where the Communist would make such a miserable show as they are making in this country. In Germany, on the other hand, quite near to Russia, the Communists are very formidable—there are three millions or four millions of Communists—but Germany still retains relations with Russia. Why? Because they know that the greatest danger for the propagation of Communism will be the breakdown of their business and their concern to get the millions of pounds which they are getting out of Communist Russia, in order to feed their population and to employ them. I do not mind saying that, from the point of the propagation of Communism, I am less afraid of the success of Stalin than the failure of the Lord Privy Seal.
What has happened in regard to some of our industries? Take the fisheries. There is no community in this country less likely to become Bolshevik than the fishermen of the East coast—steady, independent, self-reliant individuals to the last degree? There were no more patriotic body of men in the last War than the fishermen of the East coast. One knows how hard hit they have been
by that very foolish—I will use the words of a Conservative paper—
that act of supreme silliness, the breach of international relations with Russia.
Those were the words of the "Spectator." The fishermen have been very hard hit. The people who have been damaged by the failure to resume relations with Russia are our own people. It is a very great mistake from the point of view which right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Opposition Bench always advance—from the point of view of the stability of our institutions, and from the point of view of that prosperity which can alone be the greatest and surest guarantee against revolutionary propaganda. With regard to the propaganda in the East, all I can say is that I have been longer a Member of this House than the Leader of the Opposition, and I can tell him of the sort of things that we used to hear about the propaganda of Imperialist Russia in the East. I remember perfectly well how the Russians were constantly accused, and I think rightly accused, of propaganda in India, and of designs against India. We were constantly having arguments as to the necessity to fortify the cactus hedge against Imperialistic Russia. I remember the speech delivered by the distinguished father of the late Foreign Secretary, when talking about the Russian Foreign Secretary, he said that you could not believe a word he said and that one who supped with the devil must have a long spoon. But nobody ever dreamt, least of all Mr. Joseph Chamberlain, of breaking off relations with Russia, turning out the ambassador here, and if anybody had proposed it in this House he would have been treated as if he were a lunatic.
You had the same accusations then; at a time when they were much more formidable. The Russian Army was much more formidable then than it is now. [An HON. MEMBER: "Was it?"] It has been my business to study that a good deal, and I may tell the hon. Member that at the present moment they are not spending half as much upon armaments as we are in this country; and they have a very gigantic territory and difficulties in the East and in the West. With regard to propaganda in China there could not be a worse illustration to quote. What has happened? They started meddling in China; they
had a powerful propagandist organisation there. What happened? The Chinese have fired them out and now the difficulty of the world is to keep China from making war on Soviet Russia. They are a revolutionary Government, and all revolutionary Governments have their own psychology; their own code of conduct. You dealt with them in Mexico; you are dealing with them in Russia, and you will probably be dealing with them in China. You have to exercise very much greater patience and tolerance; not see too much, not take too much cognisance. When the right hon. Gentleman begs the Foreign Secretary to break off the first time there is a breach, I hope he will not. The Government of which I was the head did not break off relations, and the late Foreign Secretary exercised great restraint and tolerance. In my judgment he was right. He showed greater statesmanship than the late Home Secretary did in breaking off relations.
There are two things which we want. The first is trade with Russia. We stand in great need of trade. There is no doubt that the breach of diplomatic relations with Russia has had the effect of losing millions of pounds of trade which we cannot afford. That is the first reason why I think we should resume relations. The second reason is this. I think you would exercise greater influence upon Russia in the way of restraint if you bring her into the comity of nations. She may not behave at the table in the same sort of way as older Governments who are more trained in methods of restraint and of concealing their thoughts, and of doing their propaganda against each other. Make no mistake, there is a great deal of that, but it is done in such a way that they can repudiate everything. It has been done in the past, and it will be done again. The Russian Government do it more crudely and more roughly, I think more stupidly, but the old Russian subtlety will come back again and they will be able to beat the most exquisite master of that art by doing it in such a way that nobody will be able to point a finger at any particular Minister who has done it at all. That is almost inevitable until nations understand each other better, until there is more goodwill between nation and nation.
If the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition means that we are not to resume relations with Russia until she ceases to be revolutionary I despair of seeing any peace established in this world. The one thing which anyone who has made any study of the position in Europe knows is this that you cannot have disarmament in Europe until, first of all, you get Russia well into the organisation of nations. Poland cannot do it, Czechoslovakia cannot do it, Rumania cannot do it, if an unknown Power like this is pushed out of the way as a mere pariah Power, a Power with 120,000,000 of people and some of the bravest men in the world in their army, however badly equipped it may be. In the interests of peace in the world as well as in the interests of the poor people of this country who are seeking employment and honest trade—and you have equally honest people in Russia; I am referring now not to the handful of Ministers in Moscow, but to the millions of peasants and workers in Russia who are not even Communists, and who are anxious to have these goods—I say "God speed" the Foreign Secretary.

Mr. NOEL BAKER: Hon. Members will no doubt understand with what diffidence a new Member rises to take part for the first time in a Debate such as this. It is on a motion which relates to a great policy of State; it is, by its nature, highly controversial; it has been debated by previous Parliaments on many occasions in recent years; and the Debate this evening is to be followed by a definite decision of policy when the House goes to a Division. There could be no combination of circumstances more calculated to intimidate a new Member who for the first time takes the Floor of the House. I rise, therefore, with peculiar diffidence and hesitation, and I ask the House to give me a peculiar measure of its kind indulgence. As I understand it, the Debate to-night falls into two parts—the case for the Amendment which has been proposed and the case for the substantive policy which the Government have announced. It appears to us on this side that the burden of proof lies with those who maintain that we should not have relations with Russia at the present time. The Soviet Government has been in power for 12 years. Nobody doubts its stability and its power
to remain where it is. We have recognised that Government de facto and de jure, and the natural result of such recognition is the establishment of the fullest diplomatic relations of every kind.
The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) has said that every important country in Europe maintains full diplomatic relations with the Soviet Government. And so does every important country in Asia with the solitary exception of China, which maintained them until the recent unfortunate dispute. The Leader of the Opposition spoke as though by maintaining diplomatic relations we conferred a great favour on another nation. We maintain those relations for our own purposes; not for theirs. It is of immense importance to the Foreign Office to have such relations. Week after week and month after month questions arise, small questions and more important questions, upon which in its action the Government is embarrassed because we have no Mission in Moscow and there is no Soviet Ambassador in this city. They have not the machinery which they ought to have. It is of no use in this connection to quote the case of the United States of America. The United States is neither an Asiatic nor a European Power. Her interests hardly touch questions in which Russia is involved. We are both a European and an Asiatic Power, and our interests touch the interests of Russia at every point. Therefore, we say that in our view the burden of proof lies on those who are against the policy which the Government propose to adopt, and we submit that they must offer the country reasons sufficiently strong if they are to justify their point of view.
The Leader of the Opposition tries to find in some strange emotion the secret why the present Government desires to establish relations with Russia. I have had the privilege of discussing the matter outside with some hon. Members opposite who take a view on this question which is based upon emotion, emotion not of affection but of horror. I respect their feeling and I understand it. But we think that they are wrong, and hold that in a question like this it is essential for any Government not to act on a basis of emotion, which is an uncertain guide, but upon the sure basis of
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British interests. What are British interests in this matter? They are four; the maintenance of the peace of the world, the promotion of better trade, the settlement of British claims and debts and the cessation, if it may be, of hostile propaganda against the British Empire. In respect of every one of these the policy of the Government is the only policy which can promote the British interests involved. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs argued that the greatest of dangers to the British Empire is another international war. I think there is nothing which can break up our Empire fabric but another conflict like that which happened in 1914. The prevention of another war depends on two things; on the realisation of the Government's policy of disarmament and upon the spread throughout the world of the spirit of peace. We may start, the Prime Minister has already started, with naval disarmament; but he knows that that is not enough. The world knows that the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs is right in saying that unless Russia is brought in, a policy of general disarmament cannot be brought about. You cannot watch the negotiations at Geneva, as I have had to do for a number of years, without knowing that at every moment and at every turn the attitude of Russia and the importance of Russia comes in. In Central Europe, where disarmament is vital, nothing can be done without Russian help. We know that Russia has been ready to help. We also know that while Russia is spending half as much as we are spending on armaments, she is nevertheless arming as she was not doing a few years ago. I was deeply impressed by reading an account of the new preparations which the Russian Government are making in the "reply to Chamberlain" campaign. They are building tanks and aircraft and mechanism for warfare by poison gas. This is a sinister and dangerous development, and it is vital in the interest of this country and the world at large that it should be stopped. The same is true of the spirit of Russia. I was moved by what the Foreign Secretary said about the new generation which is growing up in Russia and which is being taught to regard the British Empire as the enemy which they
must fight. Have we forgotten already the lessons of the latter part of the nineteenth century? Have we forgotten that a generation of Germans were brought up to believe that the British Empire was the enemy which they were to fight? Have we forgotten how great a factor that was in bringing about the catastrophe of the world War? Therefore the first step, vital to British interests, which must be taken, is to do everything to promote a policy of world disarmament and to exorcise this spirit of hatred against us which exists among the younger generation in Russia. To achieve that purpose the resumption of relations is the first essential.
May I say something on the question of trade? No one doubts that the resumption of relations will benefit international trade. The figures quoted by the Foreign Secretary prove conclusively that the rupture of relations has led to this that British working men have had to walk the streets when otherwise they would not have had to do so. In 1927 our exports and re-exports to Russia amounted to £4,500,000; in 1925, after the resumption of relations, that figure rose to £19,250,000; and in 1928, after the rupture of relations, it fell back to £4,800,000. In that same period the exports of Germany to Russia rose from £3,750,000 to £20,000,000 and those of the United States from £1,500,000 to £15,000,000. Our trade has fallen away and the trade of our rivals has increased. The reason has been told to us by many British business men who have been to Russia. Whereas they were able to arrange contracts while relations were established, since those relations have been broken they have been unable to do so, because of the political difficulties with which they have been faced. The loss of orders at this time means that we are not only losing a certain amount of work at the moment, but very much in the future. One order means further orders for repairs, for replacements, for spare parts, for extensions of the plant put in, and, above all, it means the creation of good will. While we are out of the market, the Russians are learning how to purchase German and American goods.
There is another exceedingly important factor at the present time which people are apt to forget. It is what is called the "Five Years Plan"—the plan
of economic development, industrial and agricultural, which the Soviet Union is carrying through. We may think it a mistake, but it remains a fact. It is only a few months ago that M. Piatak of told a very important British delegation representing companies with a total of £700,000,000 capital, that if relations were renewed and the necessary credit arrangements—without which no international business can be done—were made, there would be orders for £150,000,000 worth of work for this country. I do not ask hon. Members to accept that figure, but I would say that the Moscow Government are, in fact, ahead of their programme in carrying out this five year plan, and if we lose the opportunity at this moment, we may also lose that great share in the execution of the plan which, if we resume relations, we may well obtain.
I turn to the question of debts and claims. Surely it is evident that our only hope of securing any satisfaction for British claimants and those in Great Britain to whom the Soviet Government owe debts, is the resumption of relations at an early date. Of course negotiations of that kind will not be easy and they will be the more difficult because they are complicated by the question of intervention in 1919. But I submit that the following facts cannot be disputed. First, the Russians, by the Protocol which the Foreign Secretary has signed, have recognised the principle that the debts exist. Second, they have promised to negotiate and to negotiate at once. Third, in official statements made in Russia it has been implied that the Russian Government is, in fact, ready to make a settlement at least as generous as that made by many of the Governments in Europe in respect of War and pre-War debts. I go further and I say that in similar circumstances, if such circumstances can be conceived in respect of any other Government in the world, there is no foreign Government which would give us more in respect of this question of claims than has been obtained for us by the Foreign Secretary in his Protocol of 3rd October. I would say also that no British Government will ever get more out of Moscow than he has got. Therefore, if we desire to do anything for claimants of any kind, the only thing we can do is to accept the policy
which the Foreign Secretary has proposed.
There remains the question of propaganda' to which the Leader of the Opposition attaches such tremendous importance. There I would say, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs has pointed out, that Moscow at this (moment is free as air to do whatever it likes in respect of propaganda. The only means which can be taken to induce Moscow to stop that propaganda are, first, to secure the watertight undertaking which the Foreign Secretary has secured; second, to influence the exercise of that power by Moscow, through the re-establishment of diplomatic relations and the building up of trade. I would remind hon. Members opposite that in a conversation between M. Rakowsky, then chargé d'affaires in London, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) then Foreign Secretary—an interview which M. Rakowsky never believed would be published but which in 1927 saw the light of day—M. Rakowsky said that the real way to change the attitude of Moscow about the Third International was to build up trade; that it was already changing, and that when Moscow had an increasing interest to keep in contact with other countries, so would their propaganda diminish and disappear.
If propaganda is the only reason, and I believe it is the only substantive reason, adduced against the policy. of the Government, I would ask this question and I can ask it with the happy irresponsibility of a private Member. What harm has Russian propaganda ever done? If it has done any harm in this country, we on this side of the House know all about it. If it has done any harm elsewhere, I ask hon. Gentlemen opposite to show where it has been. The Leader of the Opposition spoke of China and he said that we on this side were wrong about China and that we were wrong to propose that an agreement should be made with Mr. Chen. It is an astonishing fact that, unless I am wrongly informed, the right hon. Gentleman's own Government, shortly after we proposed it, made an agreement with Mr. Chen himself about Hankow. That agreement stands to-day, and unless I remember wrongly,—I speak from memory—it was
signed by Mr. O'Malley of the Foreign Office and Mr. Chen of China. I submit that what really did us harm in China was not the work of M. Borodin but the shootings in Shanghai, at the Shameen and at Wah nsien. What got rid of the difficulties which we had in China was the change of policy which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham made by his memoranda of December, 1926, and February, 1927. It was at the moment of that change in policy that our difficulties in China disappeared and they had nothing whatever to do with M. Borodin at all.
I submit that the question for the House is very simple. Will it settle this matter now, or indefinitely postpone a settlement? We shall never get better terms out of the Soviet Union than the Foreign Secretary has got. If we reject them, what will be the result? Instability in international relations in East and West; an increase in the already almost insuperable difficulties in the way of disarmament; no hope of any kind for the settlement of our claims and debts; a decrease in our already dwindling trade; while the Soviet will intensify their propaganda against us and we shall prolong and embitter the estrangement between the Russian and, the British peoples. I submit that that is a prospect which will fill the nation, and which ought to fill this House also with dismay. I hope the House will recognise that there is both a new hope and an old anxiety in the hearts of the peoples of the world to-day. The common people in every land think of these issues of international policy in broad and simple terms. They cannot understand the difficulties which politicians and statesmen find in them. They are longing to-day for the end of war. They are longing for the end of international bitterness and hatred. They are longing for tranquillity, for tranquillity to labour, in order that by their labour they may make a world for their children which will be less bitter than the world which they have known. I hope that this House to-night will hear the voice of these patient multitudes who ask for work and peace.

Mr. SAMUEL SAMUEL: We have been told that this arrangement provides that the undertaking which was given in 1924 has been renewed and that the so-
called Russian Government has undertaken not to continue their policy of constant propaganda within the British Empire. We can accept that statement, but, at the same time, I am not at all satisfied that it is a safe thing to carry out the policy which the Foreign Secretary has inaugurated because we have learned from experience that you cannot rely on the word of the Soviet Government. I think everybody is anxious that we should have amicable relations with Russia, and that we should be able to carry on our business with Russia, but however anxious we may be in that respect, I am afraid that the hopes of the Government are doomed to disappointment. I have listened to the Foreign Secretary and the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) in regard to their expectation of results from the resumption of diplomatic relations with Russia, but I am afraid that those hopes are doomed to disappointment. He have been told that if we resume relations with Russia, we shall be able to restore an enormous amount of trade, and many figures have been quoted. The Foreign Secretary told us that at one time it was £6,000,000 worth of goods that we exported to Russia, and at another time it was reduced to £2,000,000 or £3,000,000, but he omitted, as did the last speaker, to say what the Russians had exported to this country.
The Russians have absolutely confiscated all property in their own country, but we have nothing whatever to do with the internal arrangements of the Soviet Government. If they choose to confiscate, that is their business, but they have done more than confiscate the possessions of their own people; they have confiscated the possessions of foreigners, and in addition to that they have confiscated all the money that was in the various banks, and at the present time they are in a hopelessly bankrupt condition. The whole of the trouble as to the resumption of diplomatic relations is brought about owing to the misery that exists in their own land. Everybody knows that certain gentlemen from this country made a personally conducted tour, under the Russian Government, of Petrograd and Moscow, but they had everything prepared for them, and they were shown everything and were unable to see anything for themselves. Everybody who has any connection in
Russia and who is able from time to time to carry on trade there, in an indirect way, knows perfectly well that the Russians are suffering very acute distress. The people in the large cities are starving, and it is essential to the Russian Government at the present time to get credit.
I am not going to oppose the resumption of diplomatic relations with Russia. We are assured that we have been guaranteed against propaganda, but the time will come, probably very quickly, when the present Government will propose financial assistance to Russia. I am not surprised at all that the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs will support the Government in the resumption of diplomatic relations. It was the same right hon. Gentleman who, in this House, in order to save the Russian Government from a prosecution and a lawsuit in this country, when stolen timber was sent to this market that belonged to a British firm, and action was taken in our courts to claim that timber for the rightful owners—it was the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs who brought in a Measure to create the facilities to the Russian Government to bring their stolen property here. I opposed that in this House at the time, and I then told the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs—hon. Members may see it in the OFFICIAL REPORT—that he would have to alter the law of this country, because under the law it was a criminal offence to receive stolen property. By that Measure, the Government of this country passed a law that made it, so far as Russia was concerned, no criminal offence to steal the property of British subjects or any other subjects. To-day the Russians have confiscated everything, and we have given them authority to be able to dispose of that property here. That was the act of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, and I certainly expect that he will continue his support of the Russians, because he has pledged himself to do so.
It has been stated that the decline in trade with Russia is due to the interruption of diplomatic relations, but there would be no decline in trade but for the decline in the willingness of the Russians to purchase goods in England. They are still perhaps in the hope that, having got the Socialist party into office here, they will be able to get all the money
they want. They are at the present time quite free to do whatever trade they like in this country. They are shipping to this country, selling in this country, and taking money away from this country to the extent of £18,000,000 or £20,000,000 every year, and they are buying in return, as the Foreign Secretary said, only about £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 worth of goods. If, later on, the Government bring forward any proposals for credit to Russia, they should insist that, before they have any credit in this country and before the Government do anything to assist them, the money they get in this country should be expended, not to buy American or German goods, but to buy goods in this country, and so pay for the labour of our working classes. We must bear in mind that trade has nothing whatever to do with the suspension of diplomatic relations, because trade with Russia has never been stopped. They are absolutely free to do whatever they like.
We are told that the Soviet Government are anxious to be friendly with this country in the interests of peace and disarmament. The Soviet Government have at the present time the largest army in the world. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs told us that they spend less money on armaments than we do. That is more than probable, because they do not pay their army. They have the largest army in the world, because it is essential to the Russian Government to maintain themselves in power, and they can only do it by having the largest army, which is ready at their bidding to shoot down the population if they venture to utter a single word against the powers that be. We have seen the reports of terrible massacres of the Russian people, without trial and without any kind of consideration, women and children and priests being shot down, simply because the Soviet Government know that their position is so insecure that if they do not act drastically their tenure of office will be brought to an end. Their army is not there for the purposes of international aggression; it is there for the protection of the autocrats who have placed themselves at the head of affairs, and who will ruthlessly shoot down, as we have seen, anybody who ventures to attack them. Whatever we may do, if we come to an agreement
for international disarmament, the Russians can never disarm and reduce their army. But it is undoubtedly less costly" for the Russians than for anybody else, because it is the men who are armed who are able to get all the provisions and necessaries of life that they require.
We were told by the Foreign Minister that this resumption of diplomatic relations is going to be a Godsend to this country, and he has told us of the benefits we are going to gain. I never like a one-sided agreement. The Russians have absolute freedom even now, without any treaty or agreement, to come here, to live here, and to carry on their business on the same conditions as we do, and they have the same rights as we have. If we have a resumption of diplomatic relations, we are going to have a lot of Russian officials, or so-called officials, having diplomatic immunity, who will come here to join the commercial undertakings that are here now, and they will be able, under this diplomatic immunity, to go where they like and do what they like, and virtually they will not be liable to the laws of this land. Evidently the present Government consider that the Russians are superior to us. What does the Foreign Secretary think of the position of British people in Russia, where the whole of the trade is carried on by the Government? They have full facilities to come here, and I want to know what facilities are to be given to British subjects to go to Russia. Are they to have the same facilities? Are the British Government going to insist that they have as many people of British origin able to travel through Russia, to do trade, and to give information as to the prospects of trade, and are those people to have the same diplomatic immunity as we are granting to the Russians in this country? We know perfectly well that our people would not be allowed to remain in Russia for a week. We know that we in this country are doing a certain amount of trade with Russia, but we cannot make propaganda in Russia for trade purposes. We cannot go to Russia as we go to other countries and as Russia comes here. We are entirely in the hands of the Russian Government, and when our Government breaks off diplomatic relations with them, the Russian Government out of revenge, and to take advantage over us, break off
their trade with us. If there are proposals from the Government to give unlimited credit to the Russian Government, which does not represent the Russian nation, I shall oppose it.

Mr. L'ESTRANGE MALONE: I hope that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Putney (Mr. S. Samuel) will forgive me if I do not follow him in all the questions which he has raised. We are very glad on this side of the House, in view of the important interests which he represents, to hear him say that he gives us support in our proposal to resume relations with Russia.

Mr. SAMUEL: I said I should not oppose it.

Mr. MALONE: At all events, we shall have one vote less against us. I want to make one or two references to what the resumption of relations will mean to my constituency of Northampton. I would like to say how I appreciate the turn which events have taken, and what satisfaction it brings to those of us who have followed this question for the past 12 years to see the climax which has been reached in the Motion which this House is going to pass this evening. It is a coincidence that exactly 10 years ago to-night, on the 5th November, 1919, we were asked in this House to pass a Supplementary Estimate amounting to £15,000,000 to supply further money to the support of certain forces in Russia. That amount made up a total sum of £94,800,000 which we had paid to certain interests in Russia in order to overthrow the Government as it existed. We were discussing in the Debate on that Estimate whether we should go on with the War, and whether we should provide more money or not; and those of us who moved the reduction of the Estimate ventured to suggest—and we were greatly abused for so doing, and have been abused ever since—that the policy of intervention then was helping no one and ought to be stopped. Soon after that, I am glad to say that it was stopped. The actual hostilities stopped, but the policy of propaganda continued.
Never was there such a mistaken policy. One cannot help looking back to that day and imagining what we could do to-day with that £100,000,000 to provide for the social services for which we are so hard put to it to find the money to-day. I do not believe in raising these past ques-
tions, but it is just as well that we should remember how we stood in those days. I have referred to the question of intervention. The Leader of the Opposition suggested that there was a claim in regard to the withdrawal of the Russian people from the Great War. I am sure he is mistaken. Is not it common knowledge to anyone who followed the course of Russia in the Great War, that long before the arrival of the Bolshevist Government, and long before the arrival of the Kerensky Government, Russia was broken, disarmed and demoralised? It was perfectly clear that, whatever Government came into power in Russia, they would be unable to continue the War on the side of the Allies. When it came to that great Peace Conference which was held at Brest Litovsk in 1918, there was a demand of the Russian people to keep themselves on the side of the Allies and not on the side of Germany. I do not want to raise all these past recriminations, but if these questions of propaganda and paying compensation are going to be discussed, let us keep our sense of balance.
Let us admit that we have all made mistakes, and let us cry quits and get down to business, because really the fundamental advantage which we shall gain in this country from the resumption of relations is the business, trade and commerce which our people will get. Yesterday we heard from the Lord Privy Seal the possibilities of trade with Canada. Those possibilities may be limited, and many men of business realise that the really large possibilities for the finding of new markets lay, not in the West, but in the East, among the 160,000,000 people in Russia and Siberia, the 460,000,000 in China and the 300,000,000 in India. All those countries are passing through a stage which, if you do not want to call it an adoption, is at least an adaptation of what we call western civilisation. That means that they are striving towards a higher standard of life, towards a development of new tastes and new requirements. It means that they are developing the demand for the purchase of more goods, and we in this country have to see that we get a share. China is a very difficult country in which to get a large increase of her markets, for it is a great country broken up into fragments, and the only trade which you can do is that which you
can obtain by trickling through the treaty ports into the vast centres throughout the country.
In dealing with Russia, you have a much simpler proposition, because there you are dealing with a Government, with a single entity, and if you can come to a satisfactory agreement, you are dealing, not with one treaty port or with one locality, but with a great organisation, a great machine that stretches to every market throughout the length and breadth of Russia and Siberia. That is why it is so important to get in where we can on the ground floor of the great markets of Russia. Look at the loss of trade which we have sustained from the misguided policy of the last three years. I would like to quote, not my own figures, but the figures which have been published by business men. Some of these men are business men of no politics; many of them are certainly not Socialists, and by no stretch of imagination could they be said to be in sympathy with the Bolshevist Government. Here we are dealing, not with intangible things but with facts, not with theories but with figures. Our orders in this country from Russia have steadily gone down from £23,500,000 in 1924–25 to £5,900,000 in 1927–28. During that period the total imports from different parts of the world into Russia has increased from 674,000,000 roubles to 820,000,000 roubles. While the general import into Russia has gone up, our share has gone down from 18.6 per cent. to 5.5 per cent. in 1927–28. While our share has gone down, the shares of America and of Germany have gone up from 17.7 to 22.1 and 25.5 to 29.5 respectively—a very substantial increase in what is a largely increased total. Exactly what I predicted 10 years ago has occurred. I said then:
American export houses will assuredly not be long in appreciating the possibilities of supplying Russia, and if British industry gets its fair share of Russian trade, there need be no unemployment for British labour for a long time to come.
Now Conservative business men are saying what many of us used to say in this House 10 years ago. I am interested with the possibilities which are held in store for the boot and shoe trade, with which I am particularly concerned. I was much impressed at a function which I attended in my constituency a few days ago, when I heard the President of the
Northampton Boot Manufacturers' Association deliver his annual review of the possibilities of the boot trade. He gave a comprehensive survey of the future of the trade, and he showed how the internal markets of this country might be benefited by the social improvement and the social legislation which the Labour Government has introduced and is introducing. He showed the difficulties of trade in this or that part of the world, and the only place where he showed that there was likely to be a real increase of trade, the only country which really provided a virgin soil for the unemployed factories of this country, was Russia. He went on to say, if I may quote his words—and I very much appreciate being able to quote what a business man says:
I am constantly being asked whether Russia can buy English shoes, and whether there is any possibility of being able to do business with Russia. I am quite satisfied after the investigations made that business can be done with Russia, provided the necessary financial arrangements can be made. Here you have a country with vast numbers of people wanting shoes. It is estimated that the excess of consumption over production amounts to no less than 35,000,000 pairs—a colossal figure. When the two Governments get together, there is no reason why progress should not be made, and I am hopeful that before long some way may be found by which English manufacturers can supply shoes to those Russians who are so badly in need of them. At some of the places we visited, we saw queues longer than we have ever seen before waiting for shoes, and then we saw them leave without them because they were not there to be had.
If I may turn to another trade which also concerns my constituency, that of leather, here is what a delegate to the Business Men's Committee which visited Russia in the early part of this year said. He is Mr. Cross, who is managing director of the British Chrome Tanning Co. of Northampton, one of the largest tanning concerns in this country:
The output of sole leather in Russia is 75,000 tons per year, and they want 95,000 tons. Russia could purchase £5,000,000 worth of sole leather per year, and approximately the same amount of upper leather. Their requirement in boots and shoes is 120,000,000 pairs a year, leaving a shortage of 60,000,000, which could be largely purchased from this country. There is an output in Russia of only 60,000,000 pairs of shoes a year. That means one pair of boots per head of the population of Russia every two years.
Just see what that means. In this country the output of boots is two and
a half pairs per head of the population every year. In America the internal consumption is three pairs per head of the population every year. In Russia it is one pair per head of the population every two years. Those figures, I think, show what a tremendous opportunity there is for our trade. He went on to say that here was a country with vast resources and with vast output but unable to satisfy its requirements. Germany and America are doing business there, and in his opinion it was too big a country for us to ignore. That is the report of a business man who is probably a Conservative in politics. Here we have a very simple situation. We have in this country 1,250,000 unemployed, and we have this great country with 160,000,000 people demanding the goods which we in this country are able to produce.
What applies to boots and shoes and leather in my constituency applies to shipbuilding, to textiles, to iron and steel, to woollen goods and to nearly every other industry.
This Business Men's Committee state at the conclusion of their very comprehensive report that their Committee were satisfied that there was a great volume of business available for Great Britain, subject to diplomatic recognition being afforded. In a few hours' time this House will pass a Resolution which will secure that diplomatic recognition and enable business to be resumed between these two great peoples. I pointed out 10 years ago the great field there was in Russia for British enterprise. I am glad that what I said then has been endorsed by this very representative committee of business men. The Amendment submitted to-day is only a quibble. It is the last remnant of propaganda, the last dying embers of the General Election of 1924. I quite understand that those who won the election of 1924 have still to fly what remains of that tattered emblem. The Amendment will be rejected, because trade in Northampton and Leicester and on the Tyne and the interests of our people and of trade and commerce generally are more important than the prejudices of Mayfair and Kensington. Let us by passing this Resolution close what has been a volume of 10 years of black history, and to-night take a step forward which may well prove to be one of the greatest aids to the solution
of the unemployment problem which we are able to make under our present system and under present conditions.

Mr. MARJORIBANKS: I wish to acknowledge the great honour which you do me in calling upon me, when I address the House for the first time, to discuss this most important question, and if I may I would like to pay a compliment, which has not yet been given, to the hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. Noel Baker), who spoke from the other side, on the eloquent and reasoned language of his speech, which snows promise that he will one day be as famous in national and international politics as he has been in national and international athletics.
Those of us who have argued against diplomatic relations with Russia before their inception, during their continuance, and after their rupture, have at our disposal certain arguments based upon political morality. It has often been argued that a Government which is, after all the crudest form of tyranny, which relies for its protection upon the ramifications of secret police with despotic powers, and which has at the same time brought the masses of its population almost to economic ruin, would be short-lived and must fall. The Soviet Government has falsified the hopes both of those who wished the Government to fall and those who feared that it might not continue. It is seven years ago almost to the very day since the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister thought fit to write the following observations in a newspaper:
I have the greatest sympathy for the Russian Government.… Those of us who take the world into account when we make our promises and devise our methods can now take the Moscow Soviet Communist Revolutionary Government under our wing and clothe it in the furs of apology to shield it from the blasts of criticism.
The Soviet Government did not need the right hon. Gentleman's apologies; and M. Stalin was able to boast the other day that the Soviet Government was the most stable Government in Europe, a Government of which any bourgeois State might well be envious. That may be true. A bourgeois Government which may be afraid to put into force the fiscal policy in which they believe, or which may tremble at the rise in the price of one single commodity, may well envy that other Government which, after starving the millions of its population, still
possesses a greater stability than ever. That Government could not have been a popular Government. No popular Government could have survived the vicissitudes through which the unfortunate people of Russia have passed during the last 10 years. It is only because the Government was a dictatorship that it has been stable; but it is the stability of a tyranny; and we on this side of the House would do wrong to oppose diplomatic relations with Russia on account of the instability of Russia's form of Government.
Again, there are many of us who have thought and prayed that a Government which denies God, persecutes religion and mocks at the greatest hopes which humanity cherishes, was accursed and doomed to destruction. We might have thought that the religious sentiments of a deeply spiritual people would have overwhelmed the small atheistic oligarchy which governs Russia; but we have been wrong, and if the Soviet Government have been unable to expel religious feeling and private enterprise from the homes and fields of Russia the Soviet Government still retain their distinctive atheistic and communistic character.
But if this were all and the Soviet Government were a Government merely exercising dominion in their own boundaries there would be a good deal to be said for giving this terrible Government full diplomatic honours. But that is not so. We have tried the experiment. In spite of what hon. Members may say, there have been breaches of faith, and significant breaches of faith. If I went into that question, perhaps I should be opening up a controversy which would be unsuited to a maiden speech, and I am content with the observations published in the Press by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who admitted such breaches of faith. I can only say, if I may presume to criticise the observations of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal party, that whereas he began his speech by holding up Russia as an insignificant bogey, he ended his oration by saying what a great danger she really is in international affairs.
Russia is a tyranny. She has a quite different conception of sovereignty from any other nation in the world, or any
other nation that has ever existed. The right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary talks about bringing these two great countries together. So far as Russia is concerned he is talking in language which is entirely inapplicable, for the old diplomatic organisations with their ambassadors and their attaches, pre-suppose an individual nation State which has power to recognise other individual nation States and to keep control of its inhabitants and its organisations, so that they can respect those other individual nation States; but the fundamental doctrine about Soviet rule is that it is international in its outlook. Their very constitutions are not formed for the government of one people or one country, they are documents drafted to be valid throughout the whole world.
But of course it is not in the constitution that you will find the real significance of the Soviet policy. You will find that in the declared observations of the Communist party in Russia. Everybody knows that the Soviet Government is only the Communist party's engine for carrying out government of that part of the world over which they already hold dominion, and that the Communist International is their machinery for extending that dominion throughout the whole world. Everybody knows that M. Stalin said the other day, in answer to the American trade unions, that not a single important decision was taken by the Government without the direction of the party. The fundamental basis of the doctrine of the Communist party is that they are never at peace. They are going to achieve their international aims by war, and the war they carry on is only a question of degree. You will read it all in the programme of the Communist International a year ago. Where they can they will promote war, where they can they will promote civil war, and where that is not possible they will work by means of agitation. It is quite useless for M. Stalin and M. Rykoff, who a year ago subscribed to the programme of the Communist International, to regard the British Empire with feelings of mutual dignity and esteem. How can they, who a year ago talked about the British Empire in terms of undisguised opprobrium, who denounced its ways and denounced the work of the United States of America, and mocked at every institution which
we set up for world peace, talk about these new international obligations? A year ago they were talking about the international obligations of the Communist International to stir up strife all over the world. It is impossible to reconcile these two sets of international obligations. The thing cannot be done.
It would seem that a Government which has declared war upon the whole world has disposed of the old methods of diplomatic representation and would despise them. However, it does appear that they place a value upon them, and they have clearly stated the purpose to which they are going to put them. In the same programme of the Communist International which reiterated the use of world revolution appears the following:
Russia's isolated position compels it to resort to economic manoeuvring and utilising economic compacts with capitalist countries. The principal and fundamental line to be followed in this connection must be the line of establishing the widest possible connection with foreign countries—within limits determined by their usefulness to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
They go on to state
On the other hand, the capitalistic States, notwithstanding their interests in the markets of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, continually vacillate between their commercial interests and the fear of the growth of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which means the growth of international revolution.
Could anything be clearer? The Communist International is here advising the Soviet Government to enter into diplomatic and economic relations with other countries for the purpose of international revolution and not goodwill between the nations of the world. The second and less important purpose of Soviet diplomatic representations was stressed by M. Rakovski himself at the Fifteenth Congress of the Communist party when he talked about
utilising the contradictions existing between the capitalistic States, between bourgeois and petty bourgeois groups in various capitalistic countries, as being one of the means of diplomatic manoevouring.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) said that these were rude people. I do not believe him. I believe they have great diplomatic skill. Certainly, they have two notable triumphs again hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. In 1924 the Prime Minister said that there would
never be any question of a loan of money to Russia. We all know what happened a few months after. When negotiations began to break down, as a result of diplomatic manœuvring between the Russians and certain hon. Members opposite, that loan was granted, surely one of the greatest triumphs in the diplomatic history of the world. The other triumph was scored the other day, and if it was not so substantial it was at any rate no less spectacular, for, no matter what the Foreign Secretary may say, on reading the Command Paper one is forced to the conclusion that the right hon. Gentleman was forced to recede from his original position. You have only to read the documents and you will see that the Soviet Ambassador thought he was taking up a very strong position, and at any rate the upshot of those negotiations was regarded in Russia as a great diplomatic triumph; while at the most the admirers of the right hon. Gentleman can say that he had retired from an impossible position in order to be able to fulfil an election pledge. At all events, many on this side of the House feel that the laurels which His Majesty's Government won at The Hague and the White House, Washington, have been irretrievably tarnished by the conversations at the White Hart, Lewes.
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I may be accused of speaking too much from the political aspect of this question. It is fashionable to say nowadays that economics control politics, but the truth is that in Russia politics control economics in defiance of economic laws, and, what-even trade we have with Russia, it will be with a hostile Government which controls every avenue of foreign trade. We shall have to rely upon them—and who can rely upon them? Next, the only terms on which the Soviet Government can appreciably increase her trade is on long-term credit. Anybody can obtain orders on long-term credit. I would suggest that there are many countries in the world, even if we have to look outside our own Empire to indulge in generosity, which are not controlled by the Communist International and which are not confessedly hostile to us and which are not the greatest financial defaulters in history, who would be very glad to avail themselves of the terms that are now being suggested for the extension of our trade with Russia.
Lastly, why do they want this money from us? Everybody knows the reason. The Soviet Government have succeeded in establishing Communism among the industrial population. They have utterly failed in doing so with the vast majority of the people who are agricultural by trade, and who still in their humble way are capitalists. This has proved exceedingly inconvenient for the Soviet Government, and, in order to put this right, they have introduced their wonderful five-year plan to make the industrial population independent of the peasants. For this purpose, they require capital from abroad. And so, in order to make the victory of Communism complete, they call in the aid of foreign capitalists. If they ever obtained this victory, what would 'be the position of the foreign capitalist and investor. They now have to choose between bolstering up "the big nine" in the Kremlin, who are out to destroy them, and waiting for some time when some reasonable guarantee shall really be given for private property in Russia and for the sanctity of international relations?
It might have been that at this moment, when the right hon. Gentleman and the Soviet Ambassador were bringing these two countries together, some kind of reciprocation might have been shown on the other side. Yet on the very day when these conversations were taking place at the White Hart, on the very day the Berengaria was well on her way towards New York harbour, on her mission of peace and good will, M. Voroshiloff, the Commissar for War, was making a speech in Moscow in which he declared that war between the Soviet and capitalist Powers was not only probable but a matter of certainty. He said:
Adhering to our traditional policy of peace is the only sensible policy at this stage of our development. We must at the same time construct our economic system in such a way as to be ready at any moment. That is why we must construct our army and navy at the same time that we develop our economic structure.
A few days later he said:
We have already conquered one-sixth of the whole earth. We know that the future is in our own hands, but the bourgeoisie imagines also that it can continue to exist. This enmity is bound to lead to an armed conflict.
Truly, it can be said by right hon. Gentleman opposite about these people that "We labour for peace, but, when we speak to them thereof, they make them ready for battle." It is no doubt in order to strengthen their economic structure that they now ask for closer diplomatic and economic relations with this country. When the time comes, they will thus be strengthened to spread wider still that strange and terrible force of Bolshevism which gathered its original momentum, not from democracy or any principles of equality, but in the words of a great English poet, from
A terrific reservoir of guilt,
And ignorance built up from age to age,
That could no longer hold its loathsome charge
But burst and spread in deluge through the earth.

Mr. BROMLEY: I should like to claim the indulgence of the House for a moment whilst I congratulate the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Marjoribanks) upon the very able maiden speech which he has just delivered. Knowing from my own experience the generous treatment of this House on such occasions I know that his words have been listened to with very great interest. His eloquence has been noted, and I am sure the House will be delighted to hear him again on some future occasion. Perhaps the hon. Member will permit me to say that in my opinion he has merely linked together a number of propaganda phrases with regard to Russia that we have heard inside this House and outside for some years. They are the same arguments dished up again in practically the same language, and perhaps the hon. Member will forgive me if in the earlier stages of the few remarks I am going to make I suggest that in future he should guard himself when he is using such phrases which are without foundation.
The hon. Member for Eastbourne spoke with tremendous awe of the secret police of Russia just as if he had never heard of the secret police in more civilised nations. We have the Criminal Investigation Department in our own country and does the hon. Member not know that many of us sitting on these benches who are trade union officials have our dossier at the Criminal Investigation Department offices. Does he not know that we are docketed
there and our birthmarks are recorded as well as our history. I hope we shall not have in this new House of Commons any more of these pharisaical remarks about what one nation does in these matters. The hon. Member for Eastbourne rather exaggerated when he spoke of Soviet Russia starving to death millions of the Russian people. That is an exaggerated statement which the hon. Gentleman made in the heat of the moment, and which I am sure the House looked upon somewhat indulgently. That statement is not true and it does not assist very greatly by exaggerating a case which is scarcely worth making out. I would ask the hon. Member how long has Great Britain governed India? Have we never heard of a famine in India under the British flag? It is well known that thousands of people have died in that, vast nation, or rather that congregation of nations because of the difficulty of feeding them Russia is in the same position, and a good deal of this is due to the greater severity of the Russian climate.
The hon. Member for Eastbourne spoke about the persecution of religion in Russia. I have had some experience on this matter in Russia and I speak very feelingly upon it because I believe that everyone is religious faith should be deeply respected and should be left entirely alone by the State. I pursued some very close inquiries in Russia with regard to the persecution of religion, and the House will be surprised to know that I found the people worshipping in the churches and wayside shrines perfectly freely. The answer I got to questions were not that there was any persecution of religion but that the Soviet Government did not subsidise any religion. I spoke to one of the Soviet leaders in Moscow on this subject and he told me that the only difference between religion in Russia and in this country was that in England we subsidised one religion against all other sects whilst in Russia they were all upon an equal footing. It may surprise hon. Gentlemen to know that the Baptist sect in Russia has increased since the Revolution out of all proportions of what it was in the old days.

Sir BASIL PETO: Will the hon. Gentleman give the date of those inquiries?

Mr. BROMLEY: They were made in the year 1924, and there has been some improvement in the conditions in Russia since that time.

Mr. SMITHERS: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I know on the best authority that the religious instruction to the children of Russia is absolutely forbidden?

Mr. BROMLEY: The only reply to that remark is that it is not true. The principle laid down in regard to religion is equity for all, and Russia takes the view that no religion shall be taught at the expense of the nation. That is true, but let us be fair. We may not agree with it. There are many hon. Members in this House who in religious arguments would differ, and perhaps be bad friends. There has been a great deal of bloodshed in the world from the efforts of those people who have been so eager trying to save souls. In Russia, they teach nothing, and they leave it to those concerned to teach it themselves. It may be wrong; I do not think it is, but in the opinion of Members opposite it may be wrong.
The hon. Member who so ably addressed us a short time ago spoke of diplomatic triumphs. Why not get away from triumphs? It is these triumphs that have brought thousands and thousands of young men year after year to destruction, all because of the desire to triumph. May we never get into the frame of mind of making amicable arrangements with people because they speak a different language to ours and live in a different country. When we speak of the desire Russia for war, do not let us forget that Russia called for total disarmament, and it is no use saying that they did not mean it. The Russians called our bluff at Geneva on the question of total disarmament, and as we refused we cannot accuse Russia of desiring war.
During the earlier part of the Debate a remark fell from the opposite benches that many people distrust the Russian Government, and that remark was received with a volume of applause. I do not know that that is any reason why this country should not trade with Russia. There are many people here who distrusted the Conservative Government, and they proved it at the General Election. Distrust of a Government would be
no reason why a foreign country should not trade with this country.
One of the Amendments which is put before us for serious consideration, urges that we shall do no business with Russia until the Soviet have made amends for wrongs inflicted upon British citizens and provided compensation for its plunder of British property. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am glad to hear, "Hear, hear!" from Members opposite. I wonder if they have ever read of the "Alabama," for which international failure we had to pay a small amount of money to the United States of America. There is still such a thing as international law, and, if we are thus going to deal with Russia, do not forget that Russia in 1924 was prepared to recognise debts to individual citizens but refused to recognise the debts of Russian Tsardom for past wars. It may be interesting to some Members opposite, when they are thinking about the payment of debts incurred, not by the people of Russia but by Tsardom, if they would inquire about some of the millstones round the neck of our country. These were war debts for one of our Kings, who made war, and not for our people. One British King for the purpose of his wars in Flanders borrowed one million two hundred thousand pounds from a few bankers at 8 per cent., in return for which the Charter of the so-called Bank of England was granted. The nation has paid some four million pounds in reduction of capital on this debt, and over a hundred million pounds in interest and yet still owes to the moneylenders of the Bank of England some eleven million pounds, and is paying interest thereon at the rate of two hundred and seventy-five pounds per annum. That on a debt incurred as long ago as 1694. Because we have no power to repudiate these debts, is that any reason why we should complain because Russia's new Government can do so? We should recognise their courage in refusing to accept such millstones. Yes, I repeat it, we should glory in the fact.

Commander OLIVER LOCKER-LAMPSON: May I ask the hon. Member to go on with his argument and explain whether the Soviet Government will pay
back the £200,000,000 they have spent which is the money of British citizens?

Mr. BROMLEY: I am coming to that. The House will hear with interest the speech by the hon. and gallant Gentleman on Russia. I think I can tell him what he is going to say! I was dealing with Tsardom's debts which the Soviet Government repudiated, while at the same time they did not repudiate individual debts. To come back to the "Alabama" incident and international law. When we talk, as the second Amendment does, of compensation for plunder and damage and so forth, I would point to what I saw when I travelled in Russia five years ago when I observed some of the results of the Denikin counterrevolution, financed by £100,000,000 of British money granted by the Tory Chancellor of the Exchequer at that time, or rather by the Coalition Government by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Tory Administration. He has been attached to so many parties that it is difficult to know quite where he is. Great Britain advanced £100,000,000 to assist Denikin after the War. As a railwayman, I took an interest in looking at the railways, and I found all through the Ukraine and in the Donetz Basin, every station burned out, the blackened walls of signal boxes, station buildings, and warehouses, and the heaped up skeletons of carriages and freight wagons burned to the ironwork, and in at least three places I examined I found the railway had been broken and scores of locomotives run off and heaped up into the fields where they had been subjected to shell fire until everything was smashed up. Also in the coal mines in the Donetz Basin Denikin had run hundreds of coal wagons and even locomotives into the mine shafts until the shafts were' entirely filled to the surface. I suggest that, when we are talking about recovering damages, it is correct to say that, according to international law, the Soviet Government may have claims against this country. Let us give up talking in these sacrosanct phrases about paying for damage to our nationals and about our debts when we have such examples as this before us of wilful damage. The Foreign Secretary has not given everything to Russia that she claimed, even where she thinks she is right. Russia is tied up in the matter of propa-
ganda in so far as this country or the confines of our Empire are concerned.
Let me make it clear that no one on these benches is sympathetic with Communist propaganda. We have fought it more than right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Gentlemen opposite have done. In fact, we are the only people who can deal successfully with it. This Government, and everyone on this side of the House, is determined that it shall stop; but let us remember that, whatever Moscow may do, it is due to a fear in Russia, a fear engendered by the £100,000,000 we supplied to Denikin that went to lay waste their nation. My experience in going through Russia was not gained only from the ordinary factory worker, but included that of educated workers in Russia, of university professors, and of professional men generally, who believed that nations which still clung to the old capitalist regime were prepared to attack them. You may smile, but we know that this nation has had a sickener of war, and therefore we may smile at the idea that we would make a great military attack on Russia. But, if they believe it, it is of no use telling them to dismiss it when it is seriously believed by them. That is their belief, and we have been responsible for it. Even when we speak of propaganda in this country, do not let us forget that we have our spies in Russia to-day, and we have had their reports during the time when the late Government was in office telling of the results of their espionage in Russia and the number and disposition of troops, of aeroplanes, and armaments. Let us get away from the sanctimonious professions that our hands are clean. That is the reason for their propaganda—because they believe that the nations surrounding them and adjacent to them, and this country more especially, are only waiting and anxious to fall upon them and crush them because of their form of Government. The one way to prevent this propaganda, either in "Pravda" or any other of their papers, is to recognise them, to treat them at least as honourable people so far as they will keep to their agreements and discontinue their propaganda—dealing with them if they do not.

Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALL: Will the hon. Gentleman say how he would deal with them?

Mr. BROMLEY: I am not a member of the Government, but I would ask the hon. and gallant Member to possess his soul in patience until they break an agreement made with the Labour Government. I think it will be found that it is not beyond the wit of man to deal with that when the time comes. But do not let us bemoan the rotten old bridge that we remember 20 years ago, only to find, when we come up to it, that a new bridge has been built in the interval. Last night in this House the suggestion of the Lord Privy Seal that we should develop our export trade was received with derisive cheers from the other side of the House, but still it was received with cheers. Let us have sufficient intelligence, in this great and ancient Parliament, to realise that the foreign trade and exports of Great Britain will never be what they used to be. Let any Member who doubts that sit down with two maps before him—the map of Europe before the Great War, and the map of Europe after the Great War. Let him trace the trade of the world, and he will find that we are not now living in the Napoleonic era, when we were the workshop of the world. He will find that other nations have arisen, and that, while we have not stood still, neither have other people. We shall never be able to get back to that position while we exclude certain nations.
We exclude, by our system of governing that country, much trade with India. We exclude much trade with China. But here is a great nation with about 160,000,000 people. They told me there that in the North-East of Siberia there are hundreds of square miles, full of timber and untapped fur-bearing animals, that have never yet been exploited, and there are timber and manganese in other parts. There are a thousand things to be developed in Russia that will mean trade for this country. That is what we are concerned about on this side of the House, and not interference with their internal method of government, not holding up our hands in mock horror and professing this sanctimonious nonsense that we have no secret police that we do no espionage that we put out no propaganda. Of course, Great Britain has been putting out propaganda to our international advantage all over the world at all times, and not only during times of
war. Let us come down to earth, and keep at least one foot on the ground.
Here in this country we have, possibly, a million and a half of people unemployed. I am not talking of those who are on the register, but of the unemployed people in this country. There are more people employed to-day than there were in 1913, the supposed boom year, and about a million were knocked out in the War. Practically a quarter of a million employables leave school every year. What is the good of our sitting here and talking nonsense about increasing the export trade and finding work, when we choke off a great nation with tremendous possibilities for our trade, because their form of government is anathema to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. Of course it is, and I know that the gentlemen of the party which they represent fear the consequences coming to this country. Of course they will come some day, though in another form. They will not come in this country by a violent revolution, but mankind is getting wiser, and kinder, and more Christian, and will not allow, even in this old country, a continuation of the system that dresses in purple and fine linen and feeds, clothes, houses, wines and dines a section of its people while the others starve. That is bound to come, and to decry Russia and make false and exaggerated statements with regard to Russia will not hold for five minutes.
Let us, therefore, face up to the fact that we are acting for the people of this country who are suffering by unemployment. Russia, if her trade is assisted, will want a fleet of mercantile marine, and she cannot build it herself. It is no use her building ships in the Black Sea, because she could not get them out. Her only available seas are the Baltic and the White Sea, which are frozen over during the winter for a greater or lesser period. Consequently, she has no great shipbuilding yards. The shipbuilding industry of this country, owing to the German reparation ships, has been languishing smashed for years, and a great percentage of our skilled working men are going almost into unemployableness. If we begin to trade with Russia, we shall benefit our shipyards. One of my hon. Friend's remarks that it will also benefit our boot factories, and it will also benefit
the now languishing cotton trade in Lancashire.
I saw, when I was in Russia, how British engineers could have extended their work there had this financial assistance with regard to credit terms been available to them. I saw one great electrical station being built, and I spoke to a man in Russian garb who spoke very good English. He was not of our party, but was merely listening, and on one or two occasions he assisted in translating. I said to him, "You speak remarkably good English," and he replied, "I am an Englishman; I come from Trafford Park, Manchester. I have been here for several years. I ran away when the revolution came, and joined the British army, but afterwards came back here and confessed, and took up my work again, and I have never been interfered with." He went on to say, "Your Government in England have only recently supported a large loan to Czechoslovakia. You see those workmen there. They are under a Czechoslovakian foreman. These foremen are from works in Czechoslovakia, and all these Russian people are working under them. They have a contract for a large amount that we could have done ourselves to complete the contract that we have for this side of the building, but your Government helps to lend money to Czechoslovakia to find employment for these people, while we are here prepared and ready to do the work but cannot get the same accommodation."
We help another country to raise a loan which supports them in doing trade with Russia, but we are too holy to trade with a nation that happens to have destroyed its royalty. No one on this side stands for that. I myself, least of all, would stand for taking human life even if I believed that it would bring nearer by 50 years the ideals which I hold so strongly. If our people are not sufficiently intelligent to bring them without hitting anyone on the head, let them remain until they are sufficiently sensible. Do not let us forget that we were about the first nation that killed a King, and our nation is still going on and is filled, generally speaking, with pretty decent people. I appeal to the House, therefore, to cut out all this sanctimonious nonsense, and not to profess that we have clean hands while the other fellow is the only one
that is wrong. The system of government, and the internal affairs of Russia, are nothing to do with us. Let us realise the unemployment in this country and the great field that is open for us in Russia, and let us, as business people, say to Russia, "As long as you care to keep your hands off our affairs, and keep your bargains with us, we are prepared to trade with you." Let us do that, not because we may love Russia, but because we have some duty towards and some affection for our own people.

Captain EDEN: The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down will, perhaps, forgive me if I do not follow him, either into his very elaborate and ingenious argument for the repudiation of the National Debt or into distant lands in Siberia. As I have listened to this Debate, I have become more than ever convinced that, firstly, the Foreign Secretary, and then others who have spoken from the opposite benches, have as yet failed to read the Amendment on the Paper. The Foreign Secretary explained at great length why he thought it ncessary and right to enter into diplomatic relations with the Soviet Government, and we are not quarrelling with him for that. For my part, I have certainly no quarrel with hon. Gentlemen opposite because, on this rare and single occasion, they choose to fulfil a pledge which they gave at the last General Election. Our complaint is not of the fact that they have recognised the Soviet Government, but of the methods and means that they have adopted to effect that recognition, and that is the measure of the complaint that we have against the Foreign Secretary to-night.
For my part, I believe that he has pursued, in these negotiations, the worst method of diplomacy that any statesman of this country could ever follow. He has combined strength of speech with weakness in action, and you can do no greater disservice to your own country's prestige in international affairs than to pursue that policy. I do not overstate the case, as I think I can show to the House. The right hon. Gentleman came down here in July, and gave us certain very definite assurances. He told us, first of all, that he was going to stand by the Prime Minister's declaration of 1924—no propaganda; and he told us that he could hardly conceive that there would
be any difficulty in obtaining the necessary assurances from the Soviet Government, because they must know that that was his attitude. Where are those assurances now? All these months have gone by, and we are now being asked to approve of a meeting so that the assurances may then be given. Why have they not been obtained in the interval. There is evidence that that was the intention of the right hon. Gentleman. Anyone who reads the correspondence will see there very clearly expressed the reasons why, at the first meeting in July, no progress could be made. The right hon. Gentleman evidently asked for such assurances, so far as one can extract anything from this extraordinarily veiled diplomacy under which all the negotiations have been carried on; and the Soviet envoy said that it was no use, he could not carry on, because the representatives of His Majesty's Government were firm and insisted upon the necessary assurances before they would grant diplomatic recognition. That was obviously the meaning of M. Dovgalevski's statement that:
It is impossible for the British Government to re-establish normal relations before the solution of the questions outstanding, between us.
It was because of that failure that the negotiations broke down. We want to know, and perhaps, if the Under-Secretary is going to reply, he will tell us, why there has been a departure from that course of action. I think it is not very difficult for us to guess. I confess that I was very much surprised when I read that the right hon. Gentleman's firmness on this matter had not had the effect of crumpling up the Soviet representative, but that he stood firm. I was surprised because I thought that the right hon. Gentleman meant business; but the representatives of the Soviet Government sometimes know the mind of the Socialist Government better than the Members of His Majesty's Opposition. They were shrewd enough to guess that they only had to stand firm until the salubrious air of Brighton began to gather members of the Socialist party into that city, for the right hon. Gentleman to give them anything that they might want.
Those of us who were in this House at the time remember the events of 1924. One evening, when we were sitting here, certainly no more excited than we are at
this moment, and discussing some ordinary subject, the hon. Member for Brightside (Mr. Ponsonby) came down. There was great cheering from the opposite benches, though no one seemed to know why. Then the hon. Member got up and said that the Treaty had been signed, but he seemed not to know why, and still less to know what was in the Treaty. Then the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) got up and denounced the Treaty, but he did not know what was in it either, though that did not stop him from denouncing it, and telling us that it was a fake. This is not a fake, but a muddled Treaty, which may be even worse. It is entered into under conditions which may do more harm to the prestige of British diplomacy even than the ludicrous performance of 1924. The right hon. Gentleman has shown himself pliant and pliable before the threats of the Soviet Government. They are not likely to forget that, any more than they are likely to forget the suggestion with which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs presented them this afternoon, that, even if they did break these guarantees, which they have not given yet, you must not be cross with them, for bow could you expect anything else? I should like to hear from the Under-Secretary what result he expects to gain by these extraordinarily murky and muddled methods of diplomacy in which the Government have been indulging in connection with this matter during recent months. Does he really think there is going to be any real gain in trade? Surely anyone who has studied this factor has ruled that out for good and all. You have only to compare what is happening with other countries who are now having relations with the Soviet Government.
The biggest trade Prance had with Russia before the War was the wine trade. Russia and America were the two largest markets. France gave the Soviet Government diplomatic recognition. If hon. Members opposite choose to make inquiries they will discover that there has been no increase of trade whatever with Russia, not because of a sudden arrival of sobriety but because the wine merchants of France find it impossible to carry on business whether diplomatic relations are given or not. You may
turn to other countries and you will find the experience precisely the same. We were beginning, in the early part of this year, to do better business with Russia than the year before. We shall do business with her whether there are diplomatic relations or not if the mutual desire of nations to trade exists, as it does, and if they want to buy our goods and we want to buy theirs. I deplore the fact that we have not pursued throughout the attitude of the United States. I am very sorry these shiftings of policy should have taken place. I am sorry that at one moment there is recognition and at another there is not. These treaties, brought about by pressure from the back bench Members, and these negotiations do no good to us or to anyone else and they certainly do not raise our position in' the eyes of the Soviet Government itself. It is a pity we ever attempted to give recognition. A far more dignified, more proper and more profitable course has been pursued throughout by the United 'States. If the right hon. Gentleman is making this treaty in a desperate attempt to get trade, I fear very much that he is going to be as disappointed as were some of the industrialists of France and other countries when they gave them recognition.
There is one other possibility with which I will deal. I suppose the right hon. Gentleman may tell us it is his purpose, if he can, to obtain some control over propaganda and to curb it. The omens at the moment are not very hopeful. On the very day, or the day after the right hon. Gentleman sent a note to the Soviet representative saying he was going to ask Parliament for permission to approve the sending of representatives, a representative, and an important one, of the Soviet Government spoke in these words:
Our chief task is, and will continue to be, that of unmasking the policy of all and every imperialist party and of revealing to all workers the line of the proletarian State with relation to the capitalist powers. The fight for the resumption of relations between Great Britain and the Soviet Union merely helps us to unmask, in the eyes of the masses, the thoroughly bourgeois policy of the Labour party, a policy which becomes a parrot whenever there is a question of defending the interests of capitalism and the bourgeoisie, and protecting Imperialist positions.
I make the right hon. Gentleman a present of that. I should never call him
a bourgeois parrot. I think the right hon. Gentleman and hon. Members opposite have greater need perhaps than any of us to do all that lies in their power to curb this propaganda, and we should be most interested to hear what are the guarantees, if any, that it is proposed to obtain from the Soviet Government. They will be absolutely useless unless they cover the propaganda of the Third International, and even then they are not likely to be guarantees in which we could place much faith. This House, in my judgment, would be quite wrong were it to allow these exchanges of diplomatic representatives to take place without a representative of His Majesty's Government telling us upon what guarantees those exchanges shall be made.
I have no quarrel with hon. Members opposite because the Government have seen fit to recognise the Soviet Government—we expected that of them—but I do not believe any of the results we have heard acclaimed in such eloquent language will result from that recognition. We shall find ourselves, even after recognition, a year hence, very much in the position we are in now, except that the paper of the Foreign Office will be liberally bespattered with protests and exhortations to the Soviet Government to behave itself. I do not think they will achieve the results they are looking for. I do not think this policy will produce any practical consequences of a beneficial nature whatever, but I think the way in which the Government have carried out these negotiations has done them and the country a serious measure of harm in the eyes of the world. They have let the Soviet Government boast of a diplomatic victory. They have shown themselves supine and powerless the moment the Soviet Government stood up to their protestations. The Foreign Secretary reminded me to-day of the frog in La Fontaine's fable. He came down in July, like that frog. He puffed himself out, he spoke very big, and the bigger he spoke the bigger he grew, until at last he cracked, his big words burst him, and when he came to actual action there was nothing left but a punctured carcase to maintain against the Soviet Government. I hope in future, when hon. Members opposite are engaged in negotiations with the Soviet Government, they will worry less about the size
of their words and trouble more about the size of their deeds. Then, perhaps, they may be able to repair the damage they have done by the methods of this negotiation, which for the first time for a generation has made British diplomacy contemptible in the eyes of the world.

Major McKENZIE WOOD: There are two methods of approach to the question we are discussing. The first is the international aspect, to which most speakers have addressed themselves, but there is another which is of no less importance and, if we consider it, it may give us a part answer at any rate to a question which the Leader of the Opposition put earlier in the evening. He asked what was behind the Government in putting down this Motion. I come from a constituency where this question was the greatest single issue of the election. Indeed, to' a great many of my constituents there were no other issues in the election at all. The argument that was put up against me was that the Labour Government was the only one that was likely to bring Russia back into diplomatic and commercial relations with this country and, as that was the only thing they required, it was no use voting for anyone else. I did my best to point out the difficulties that lay in the way, and I am sure a great number of these men will be disillusioned by the difficulties the Foreign Secretary has encountered in trying to get Russia back into the comity of nations. I do not blame the Government for the delay, nor am I surprised at it, although I regret it very much indeed. The difficulties show how easy it is to break off relations. One State can break off relations, but it takes at least two to patch them up again, and that makes the operation very much more difficult indeed.
There is no constituency probably in the whole country where the outcome of this Debate will be awaited with greater interest than in Banffshire. To my constituents it is vital. The resumption of trading relations with Russia is not a mere academic matter with them. It is a question of their bread and butter, and that is due to the fact that there are more herring fishermen in my constituency than in any other, even than in East Aberdeenshire. The herring fishing industry is a very important one in Scotland. At Yarmouth or Lowestoft at the
present moment you will see close on 20,000 fishermen and fish workers pursuing their hard life trying to catch herring. Much capital has been invested in the industry and, up to the War, it was probably one of the most prosperous in the whole country. Since then, however, it has been having a very bad time indeed, and in the last few years it is safe to say that it has been shivering on the very brink of disaster. Hon. Members who do not know much about it will be surprised to hear that three-quarters of all the herrings caught in these islands are pickled and sent abroad, mainly to the north of Europe, and before the War, Russia was one of our chief customers. Since the War she has fallen out almost entirely, and the commodity is of such a peculiar kind that it is very difficult to get alternative markets. The industry has been searching all over the world doing everything it can, by research and by new methods, to get new markets and it is not far from the mark to say it has signally failed. It is, indeed, unanimous that, unless Russia comes back into the market and begins to take herring to something like the extent she did formerly, the industry will have to be cut down by half. I need not point out the social dangers of such a thing.
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The industry, in Scotland particularly, has not been a capitalist industry in the sense in which we speak of capitalist industry, but has been carried on largely by co-operative methods, the boats being owned by the fishermen, and for that reason it is well worth doing something to help it and prevent it falling out. For the last few years it has been at a standstill for six months in the year, and it is unnecessary to point out the grave effect that has upon the unemployment question. I said Russia had fallen out of the market. It is not absolutely correct to say that, because in 1924 Russia came in and bought a large quantity of herring, and the result was that that was the only successful year the industry has had since the War. There has been some dispute as to whether this was caused by the Labour Government or was a mere coincidence, but it is not germane to this Debate to try to decide that dispute. There can be no doubt of the effect of it, and it shows how much Russia means
to this industry, and shows therefore the extreme interest which those fishermen, and all engaged in the industry, have in the question which we are debating to-night.
There is another thing which influences them. For the last few years this industry had been unable to start its work until later in the summer than it used to do; and why is that? It is because in the earlier part of the year the fishermen catch herring which is rather immature, and in the past Russia has been the only market for that immature herring. The result of that is that to-day, Russia being out of the picture, they cannot go to sea, and unemployment in the industry in the district in which the fishermen live is all the greater.
I think I have now given enough facts to show that the Government may have had very good reason indeed for doing something to re-establish trading relations with Russia. It is the only method that I can see of relieving unemployment in constituencies like my own, which is not unique, at any rate in Scotland. I, of course, know perfectly well that, supposing we resume commercial relations with Russia, it does not necessarily mean that Russia is going to begin to buy the herrings which these fishermen are so eager to catch, but I also know perfectly well that, unless we do re-establish commercial relations, Russia certainly will not buy. The first thing that we can do is to make a beginning, and the beginning is to bring her back into the commity of nations and to treat her as we would treat anyone with whom we proposed to do business.
A great number of hon. Members have tried to warn us and frighten us about the grave risk which we are taking if we enter into commercial or diplomatic relations with Russia. I think they grossly exaggerate that risk; but so far as I am concerned I am quite prepared to admit that there may be some risk in taking the action which the Government proposes to take. What I do say, however, is that letting things drift as they are at the present time drifting, doing nothing, and letting our relations with Russia go from bad to worse, is the worst thing of all and the gravest risk of all. I am glad therefore that the Government have taken and are taking some steps to put an end to this; and there is, as I have said before, no part of the country
in which the action which they are taking to-night will be hailed with greater delight than in the north-east of Scotland where these fishermen live.

Mr. STRACHEY: I, like other hon. Members, who have spoken in this Debate, need the indulgence of the House, which I think it never fails to extend to Members who address it for the first time. I need the further indulgence of the House in that I cannot, like many hon. Members opposite have done, enter into a detailed account of the Soviet Government. I have visited Russia, and I find, largely as the result of that visit, that I know very little about Russia. Many of those opposite, however, are in the position of not having visited Russia, but of being very willing to tell us a very great deal about it. I would prefer to rely rather on the fact that I have visited the industrial areas of this country. I have visited Birmingham, Newcastle, Glasgow, Manchester and the other depressed industrial areas of this country, and it is my knowledge of those areas and of the conditions which obtain there, and of the necessity for increasing our trade in the great industries upon which those areas depend, which makes me so keen an advocate of the course which the Government is taking to-night.
There have been during this Debate many desperate efforts from the other side to belittle the importance of our possible trade with Russia. It seems to me a somewhat desperate enterprise to begin on—to suggest that our trade with a nation of 130,000,000 people, covering one-sixth of the world's surface and some of its richest areas, can be of small importance. How desperate that enterprise is was illustrated in the speech which we heard just now in which the fact that the champagne and wine trade between France and Russia has declined was put forward as an instance of the impossibility of increasing our trade with Russia. It is quite true that Russia is buying less champagne than she did before the War, and it is quite true that I see no possibility of that particular trade being greatly increased, but in other industries which I think I may say are not less important, to this country at any rate, than the wine industry—in the industries which produce the prime necessities of life, in the industries which produce machinery,
in the industries which are more developed in this country than in any other country in the world, the industries for industrialising another country; industries for exporting not goods produced but for exporting the very means of production themselves—in those industries the opportunity of trade with Russia has not decreased, but has immensely increased. It is for those reasons that I regard it as of the utmost importance, not only to establish diplomatic relations but to make that a first step in a consistent policy for opening up trade relations with Russia.
I think there is a certain misconception of the relative importance of our possible trade with Russia in relation to our whole export trade. After all, the exports of this country go at present to a relatively small number of our customers. Our greatest customer is India; we export to that country just over £80,000,000 worth of goods. Our next greatest customer is Australia; we export to Australia £60,000,000 worth of goods. After that come a group of customers the largest of whom, the United States of America, takes £40,000,000 of our goods; and our total exports to the whole world are only about some £700,000,000 worth of goods. I think that it can be very clearly shown that our exports to Russia could be increased to at least £40,000,000 worth per annum in a very short period; and I think I put the figure moderately. That would make our trade with Russia comparable in importance with our trade with any country in the world. That seems to me an opportunity which it would be stark, staring folly for a country in the position in which we are to-day to ignore. We have only to hear the speeches made in yesterday's Debate, largely from the other side of the House, to know the utter importance of increasing our export trade, not merely from the point of view of the employment which it will directly yield, but for the strengthening of our whole financial position, which can hardly be effected in any other way than by an increase in our export trade. I suggest that the great opportunity that is before us as an exporting country is the rapid development of the almost untouched market which is before us in Russia.
I am not for a moment suggesting that that market does not present special
problems and special difficulties, but I suggest that every market which we, as a great exporting nation, have yet tapped in this world has presented special difficulties. It is quite true that if we are going rapidly or immediately to increase our trade with Russia on a great scale, we shall have, to a very large extent, to finance that trade. But is this a unique position? Is it not the case that at this very moment we are negotiating a credit, which is said to be of some £19,000,000, for the financing of our export trade to the Argentine? Is it not the case that in every country which is in a comparatively undeveloped state, in every country which is primarily an agricultural country not yet industrialised, if an industrial country like ours wishes to open up a great export trade with that country, then it is the industrial country which in the main has to finance that trade? My point is that there is no special problem in this matter in regard to Russia. It is the problem of financing a great export trade from a country with a high degree of capital accumulation such as this country, to a country such as Russia which is in a comparatively undeveloped state.
It is true that there are special features in the position with regard to Russia, but I suggest to the House that on the whole those special features are decidedly advantageous to the rapid development of such trade. In the first place I do not think anybody can possibly doubt that there is a tremendous determination not merely of the Russian Government but throughout the Russian people to-day to industrialise their country almost at all costs. They are determined to let no sacrifice stand in the way of building up great industries and developing their productive system to the very utmost. That in itself gives us a great opportunity. But more than that, as any practical exporter of goods who may be in the House at the moment could confirm, the great difficulty in developing an export trade which you have to finance, as I have just said you always do in practice have to finance it, very largely is to find some institution, some authority, in the country to which you export which is of such unimpeachable financial stability that you can grant credits to it.
In the case of most countries organised on an individualist system, such institu-
tions can be only, either private individuals or companies or corporations, all of whom have only their own private credit to back any undertaking which they may give you. Take the case of the Argentine, of which I have been speaking. The credit of the Argentine Government is no doubt unimpeachable, but the credit of any particular Argentine firm with whom it might be necessary to deal may be by no means so good, and the risk of their becoming bankrupt may be apparent at any time. In the case of Russia, however, owing to the fact that the whole of the foreign trade is centralised in Government institutions, that risk is not apparent, and the whole credit of the country is behind any purchases which may be made either in this country or in any other country of the rest of the world. That gives, in my opinion, a far greater opportunity and far greater facility for providing financial facilities for export—that export which we so dearly need today. And I do urge on the Government that the wise step that they are taking tonight should be only a first step in a considered policy for the development of our trade with Russia.
I think that enough was said yesterday to make all sides of the House agree that the unemployment problem represents a question which we have as yet come little nearer solving than we were before. Therefore, cannot we take this very practical step, at any rate, to find employment in those very industries which are most depressed? Let us see to it that the present move is followed up by the development of some scheme on the lines, perhaps, of the present Export Credits Scheme embodying, perhaps, certain features of the late Trade Facilities scheme. A new scheme embodying those two earlier schemes and designed to assist our export trade in this vitally important Russian market and also in other comparatively undeveloped markets, such as China and other countries, might be of great importance to our export trade.
We shall be told that any development of policy along those lines is open to the gravest risk. I think that in the case of Russia, at any rate, it can be shown that these risks are comparatively small. As a matter of fact, the Russian Government cannot possibly default in any international payment because it could never buy a single article again in the
world's markets if it did so. It has never defaulted a single payment and it never can, for the simple reason that the whole credit system is centralised and one default would break down the whole of Russia's buying capacity in the world's markets. Even if there were some risks, even if there were new developments and new questions, as perhaps there are, to deal, with was the vast export trade of this country, which gave us our industrial preponderance, built up on a policy of Safety First? I think not. I think that this country became industrially great by pushing out trade throughout the world, by taking certain risks, by having a policy which was bold, wisely conceived and had vision, and I take it that this Government's step tonight is the prelude to such a policy. I believe that such a policy can bring immense benefits both to the industrial workers of this country and to the great peasant masses of Russia. I do not feel ashamed to admit that I care very much about the benefits, about the immense improvements in the living conditions, which such a policy should bring to the workers and peasants of Russia, just as I care, primarily of course, for the benefits it will bring to our own workers. Therefore let the Government which is doing so well to-night take this the first step in a really constructive Russian policy.

Mr. SMITHERS: We have just listened to a very good speech and it is the first time it has fallen to my lot to congratulate an hon. Member on making his maiden speech. I am proud to be here to-night to continue that wonderful tradition of the House, that on whatever side of the House we may be we are always willing to pay tribute where tribute is due. I am sure that on all sides of the House we congratulate the hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Strachey) for the way he has delivered his speech and for the tone and quality of it, and to express the hope that we shall hear him on many future occasions. I thank him all the more because of the publication with which he and his family is connected and to which I have been a life-long subscriber. If I may add one personal note, it is a standing joke in my family on Sunday afternoon, and they say, "Do not make a noise, he is going to read 'The Spectator.'" The hon. Gentleman spoke very optimistically
about Russia's ability to pay and said that we should continue a bold policy as we have always done in the past in the development of our Empire and world trade. I would call his attention to a statement which was made by a leader of his own party.
The Foreign Secretary during his speech spoke of long term credit and I ventured to make an interruption to say credits could be had if the security was there. He rather demurred at that and in the next breath the Foreign Secretary announced that the Government as a Government would not give any guarantee or loans as credit to the Russian Government. So that with all his enthusiasm to carry this Motion to-night, when it comes down to hard business—and he would like I expect in his heart of hearts to make large advances to the Russian Government—he knows perfectly well that they would not be safe and he would not for a moment be able to carry such a proposal in this House or in the country. When it comes to a test this is what the Foreign Secretary really thinks of the value of this Agreement to-night. I would also like to ask the Under-Secretary of State, who, I understand, is going to reply—and I have ventured to ask several questions on this subject—this question. The Foreign Secretary referred to the replies of the Dominions but he did not give us a Very detailed account of the matter. He said that they did not dissent but I should like to know how many actually assented.
The Foreign Secretary and most of the speakers to-night kept on referring to the Soviet Government, but in dealing with the Soviet Government you must always remember the intimate connection and contact there is between the Soviet Government and the Communist International. This has been recognised by the present Prime Minister and the present Chancellor of the Exchequer. I will not worry the House with quotations more than I can help for I have a goodly number of quotations to-night. I have them by me if anyone wants to hear them. But the fact remains that the Soviet Government and the Communist International both depend on the Politbureau of the Russian Communist party in which Stalin is the Dictator. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), who I am sorry to say is not in his place, said that the
Russian mentality likes to shift responsibility. Here they have every opportunity of doing so. It may be one of the means they will have, if the agreement about propaganda is not carried out, of evading the issue. In my opinion it is quite impossible to believe the word of the Soviet Government and its Allied organisation to-day.
I would like to ask whether the Communist International, the Komintern, has ever renounced the policy of world revolution. It certainly has not, and it is for the moment devoting its energies to the British Empire, especially in India and China, which are the principal objects of its activities. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs said that he did not fear a revolutionary movement in this country. Nor do I, nor do the Soviet Government. They know perfectly well that to get a real revolutionary movement in this country would be one of the most difficult things in the world, and therefore they are concentrating their activities on our Empire, our Dominions and the borders of our Dominions, especially Afghanistan and the north-west frontier. The dictum of Lenin, which says:
Let us turn towards Asia, and we shall succeed in the West,
was the starting point of the vast turning movement to overthrow the world. The Second Congress of the Komintern have passed the following Resolution. [Interruption.] I hope that hon. Members will allow me to proceed. It is not easy for me to speak in this House, but I consider it to be my duty to try to put before the House the widespread net of activities of the Soviet Government and its organisations. I hope the House will allow me to do that, without making my task more difficult. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] The Second Congress of the Komintern passed the following Resolutions:
The Colonies constitute one of the principal sources of the forces of European capitalism.
The suppression by the proletarian revolution of the Colonial power of Europe would overthrow European capitalism.
The Communist International must start revolutionary movements in the Colonies.
The manifesto of the Central Committee of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which is a Government institu-
tion, published on the occasion of the 10th anniversary of the Soviet, an appeal to Oriental people to revolt, with the support of the Soviet union, "the first proletarian State." The Sixth World Congress of the Komintern, held in Moscow in 1928, adopted in the official programme of the Communist International, "Thesis on the revolutionary movement in the Colonies, and semi-Colonies." The thesis maintained the Resolutions of the Second Congress, and said:
The maintenance of the Soviet régime in Russia has enabled the setting up of a basis and centre of attraction for all the Colonial revolutionary movements.
The second paragraph explains the role of the Chinese revolution, the third explained the revolutionary movement in India, and the fifth speaks of South Africa. I want the House to note that all this subversive propaganda is spread along the borders of or within the British Empire itself. The seventh paragraph affirms that
the essential causes of the revolutionary movement are still existing and the revolution cannot but develop.
The eighth paragraph insists upon the importance of the anti-Imperialist block formed by the U.S.S.R. and the revolutionary movements in Europe and the revolutionary organisations in Asia and Africa. These latter, it says, must be ever actively supported by the Communist International.
The solution of the Colonial problem is only to be found in a direct fight under the protection of the revolutionary Soviets.
The remaining chapters expose the characteristic features of the colonial economy of Imperialistic policy, and studies the Communist strategy and tactics in China, India and other Colonial countries. That is the theory of the Soviet Government and its allied organisations.
I would now direct the attention of the House to the extent to which that theory has been put into practice. [Interruption.] I am anxious to show the House and the country the extent of the subversive propaganda and activities against the British Empire that is going on to-day. I do not think they are generally known. Let me direct attention to the organs of the Soviet Government. There is the Commisariat for
Foreign Affairs which has a Near East section, a Central East section and a Far East section. There are diplomatic, consular and commercial representatives in Turkey, Hedjaz, Iraq, Persia, Afghanistan, Mongolia, China and Japan.
Then there is the Commissariat of Commerce. The economic organs in the Par East are linked with the Vladivostok section of the Association for the Study of the Orient, a revolutionary organ in connection with the Central Committee of the Soviet Government. This is in close touch with the corresponding sections of the Foreign Office and the Komintern. The Association popularises "scientifically" among the eastern peoples, the principles of Leninism. Its organ is "The Near East" and this association is called "The Laboratory for the Bolshevisation of the East." The sections of this association are the Near East section, which is following the revolutionary movements in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, South Africa, Persia and Turkey; the Far East section, to look after China and Japan, and the Central East section for India and Afghanistan. In addition there is a section of Colonial law and Colonial policy, a special Seminar for the history of colonial policy in the east, and there is a section for the study of the work and life of women in the east. The association has two important branches at Vladivostok and Kieff, where it organises the "Eastern Peoples' House."
Another form of subversive propaganda is found in the schools. There is the Communist University of the Eastern Workers, called the Stalin University; the Institute of Oriental Studies, connected with the central committee of the Soviet Republic; the university of the Chinese Workers, the Sun Yat Sen, Leningrad, and the Institute of Living Oriental Languages with the following Sections, China, Japan, Mongolia, Tibet and Hindustan and Turkestan. The Institute admits only members of the Communist party. [Interruption.] I knew that I should bore the House and that what I had to say would not be received very kindly, but I am anxious to point out and I mean to point out the widespread nature of this revolutionary organisation.
Up to this point I have spoken only of the organs of the Soviet Government.
I now turn to the organs of the Komintern. They have the Oriental Secretariat at Moscow, the Indian Communists, the Communist party of South Africa, the Oriental Bureau of the Executive Committee of the Communist International of Youth at Moscow, and the International Secretariat of Women.

Mr. TOOLE: Will the hon. Member tell us the name of the book from which he is reading and then we might get it.

Mr. SMITHERS: I am not reading from a book; I am very anxious to quote carefully, and I am fully aware of my responsibility to the House. I am quite confident, as far as I can possibly make sure, that the information is authentic. The Oriental Section of the Society for Cultural Relations with foreign countries, the Profintern, that is the Red Trade Union International, has already published two volumes of revolutionary literature dealing with India, Iraq, China, Palestine, Persia, Ceylon, Japan, New Zealand, Australia, and British possessions in Africa, Egypt, and the South African Union. Then there is the Red Trade Union of the Pacific, and the Anti-Imperialist League. It is worthy of attention that at the first congress in Brussels the following delegates were present: 22 from China, 14 from India, three from South Africa, one from West Africa, one from Egypt, one from Palestine, and 18 from England.

Mr. TOM SMITH: Are we to take it that the hon. Member is unable to state when this meeting took place? Surely he should have verified the quotation before giving it to the House?

Mr. SMITHERS: It is not a quotation. I have taken great care to see that all the details are correct. I have them from a very well-informed source, which I have promised not to divulge, because it would not be safe for certain persons.

Mr. SMITH: Is it a secret society from which you had the details?

Mr. MAXTON: May I intervene? The hon. Member has assured us in this House and the country that all the agencies he has mentioned are agencies of the Komintern, controlled by and under the direction of the Komintern. I was until recently the International chairman of one of these organisation. I have not yet severed my connection with the inter-
national body, although I have had some quarrel with the British section, and I want to assure the hon. Member that his authentic information on this matter at least is not authentic.

Mr. SMITHERS: Will the hon. Member tell me to which organisation he refers?

Mr. MAXTON: The Anti-Imperialist League.

Mr. SMITHERS: Of course I accept what the hon. Member says, but I still assure the House that I have taken great trouble with these details, and these are the methods by which the more or less violent forms of revolutionary propaganda are being spread throughout the world. The point I want to make is that it would be childish to think that all these organisations will put an end to their activities because an agreement has been come to between our Foreign Secretary and the Soviet Government. I hold in my hand a paper which gives a list of 18 countries, most of them in Europe, where the Soviet Government, in violation of its undertaken engagement, has carried on subversive propaganda, and this subversive propaganda is mainly directed against the British Empire. In my opinion it is impossible to have any confidence in the Soviet signature or in the fair play of their emissaries and ambassadors. You cannot placate the implacable. I should like to have spoken about their war against religion and the disgraceful methods which have been taken to drag down the children, and "especially some children which were sent from this country. I have myself seen a photograph of a poster exhibited in Soviet Russia in which a rich peasant by the foul action of clearing one nostril meant to show that he was clearing religion out of his head. There was another poster where the Founder of Christianity is seen in a cafe with loose women.
By resuming diplomatic relations with Russia we, who with all our faults are still the country with the highest standard of morals and character, are setting the seal of our recognition on this revolutionary movement in Russia and creating an effect throughout the world. It is exactly what the Soviet Government wants. By giving them
this recognition we shall be giving them greater power and greater strength to carry on their revolutionary propaganda by these diabolical methods. The Prime Minister the other afternoon said that he was proud that when he went to America he spoke as a spokesman of the whole British Empire. He went with a message from His Majesty the King and with the good wishes of the Leader of the Opposition. Does he claim that he speaks for the whole nation to-day? I think not. He went to America to try and bring peace to the world and a reduction in naval armaments. By their action to-day the Government is not making for peace but for more strife, and instead of being able to reduce the number of our ships we shall require more in order to keep peace and order in the world. In conclusion let me quote a saying of Menjinsky:
As long as there are idiots to take our signature seriously and to put their trust in it, we must promise everything that is being asked, and as much as one likes, if we can only get something tangible in exchange.
I regret that the question is being brought forward at this time and I shall certainly vote against the Motion.

Mr. HAYCOCK: We all sympathise with the hon. Member who has just sat down. I wonder how he will sleep tonight amid all those nightmares and specters and dangers of which he has spoken. He is living in an atmosphere of "the goblin will get you." If we were to believe the hon. Member we would come to the conclusion that the Bolsheviks had "dumped out" a moral regime in which religion and family like were taken seriously—with Rasputin in charge. He asks us to believe that Russia was a country of super-morality and he draws a picture of the disasters that will happen in consequence of the Bolsheviks having come into power. He argues that we are to expect a world revolution because there is subversive propaganda in no fewer than 18 countries. I wonder how many of those countries have such heroic Home Secretaries as the late Home Secretary of this country. If they know that this subversive propaganda is going on, and that Russia is a country without any religion and without any wedding rings, then perhaps they ought to do what our late Home Secretary did here. They ought to commit acts of burglary and
"dump out" the Russians but, peculiarly enough, we are the only people who have done this sort of thing.
An hon. Member opposite put the question, "What are we going to do about it," but what are we going to do about the mess made by the late Home Secretary? Are we going to keep up hostile relationships with the Soviet Government for ever? Are we going to try to make a bargain with Russia? It takes two to make a bargain, and I hope the Foreign Secretary has made the best bargain possible. I know that if I were the Foreign Secretary of Russia, a country whose business here has been interfered with so violently and dealt with so unceremoniously, I should want guarantees. I should want to know whether there was any danger of anything approximating to the Arcos raid happening in future. The Russians are the people who are suffering from a sense of grievance. The late Home Secretary made a blunder and it is up to our Government and the Foreign Minister to undo the damage and wipe up the mess which other people have caused. He has done it to our satisfaction and I believe the business community of the country will approve of what he has done.
This is a psychological question. It is not the first time we have had this kind of propaganda. It is not the first time we have lived in this kind of atmosphere. Some people need to have an enemy and a fear. They are not happy unless there is something to frighten them and when we are in that mood, the truth is never told. We told lies about the Germans, about the French, and about the South Africans. We have boxed the compass in our likes and dislikes and we have never been without an enemy approximating to what Soviet Russia is to-day. Whenever there has been this kind of propaganda the British public have paid dearly for it. Concerning Russia we have been living in an atmosphere of lies from the beginning. There has been a lot of propaganda, some of it financed by responsible Government Departments, which has been inexcusably dishonest. We know that classic instance of the "Pravda." A British Government Department was responsible for the forging of that newspaper. They imported type and set up the paper, headlines and all, and in that forged "Pravda" there were
all sorts of stories to the effect that the Russians were a most impossible people incapable of civilisation and guilty of all kinds of atrocities. They only made one mistake. The London printer printed his name and address in the last column. It was Sir Basil Thomson who was responsible for that. They cut off the name and address of the London printer and put these forged newspapers on to British gunboats and sent them to Riga for world distribution. Everything in the garden was lovely, for anti-Russian propaganda, until the compositors came into the "Daily Herald" office and gave original copies. The matter was brought up in this House and a number of hon. Members may remember the sequel. Sir Basil Thomson had to retire, but he still continued his anti-Bolshevist propaganda. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Of course he did, and he was continuing his investigations one night in Hyde Park when he was caught.

Commander O. LOCKER-LAMPSON: In what year was this?

Mr. HAYCOCK: In 1922 or 1923.

Commander O. LOCKER-LAMPSON: Do I understand the hon. Member to say that this was used as propaganda on British ships? If, as he says, the paper was printed in Russian, how could British sailors read it?

Mr. HAYCOCK: I never said anything of the sort. This is a matter of history—a matter of fact and of truth. The whole issue was forged, headlines and all, and the forgery was perfect, but for one mistake—just as Crippen only made one mistake, but it was enough. Our opponents very often blunder, and in this case they made the mistake of adding the name and address of the London printer in the last column. The game was up when the London compositors came into the office of the "Daily Herald." We know that as far as Russia is concerned they have been pouring out lie after lie from Riga. There is a sort of international lie factory there, sending out lies for world consumption, but the public are waking up. This is nothing new in international politics. It was the same with the Boers, the French and the Germans. You have never known how to tell the truth where international prejudices are concerned. The same old game is being played now, and the story
is that there are a number of people now walking the streets out of work. Your Arcos raid was an act of war, and if it had been done to any other nation than Russia there would have been war, and we should all have been wanted, and our King and country would never have forgotten us.
The great joke is this that you people now who quarrel with Soviet Russia can strain at a gnat and swallow a circus camel. You would have accepted the old Russian Government, and you did accept it when it was tottering when Stolypin was using that famous necktie and hundreds of thousands of decent men, whose only crime was that they believed in a square economic deal, were hanged without a trial, when decent men and women were going on their walking tour to Siberia, when 300,000 men, women, and children were shot, but you cooperated with that tottering Tsarist régime. You did something more. If the War had gone according to plan, if there had not been the Bolshevik revolution, if the Bolshevists had not come into power, if the War had been in accordance with the treaties about which the Leader of the Opposition talked this afternoon, supposing Russia had kept to those treaties and the Allies had won the War, Russia to-day would have been occupying most of Germany, there would have been no Poland, no Estonia, no Latvia, no Finland, the Russians would have been in Constantinople, and there would have been a large part of Arabia controlled by Russians. We should have supported Tsarism, and we would have accepted an extension of it to include Bessarabia, parts of Germany, and Constantinople. You did accept a despotism, and you did support it. You lent money to that despotism, and when we come along now and ask what the Bolshevists have done that is so terribly wrong, I know this much; I know that you are angry over atrocities, but a little bit of common honesty would not hurt you.
The real atrocity that the Bolshevists committed was the atrocity of saying that the land was not to be owned by the landlords, but by the people. I know that that is the sin against the Holy Ghost, as far as a number of hon. Members opposite are concerned. It is a terrible thing to think that the land should belong to the people. Another atrocity they committed—and
for this they will never, never, never be forgiven—was the publishing of the secret treaties which demonstrated beyond the shadow of a doubt that the last War was fought for a lie; and if the British public had known what it was being fought for when the War was on, believe me, that War would not have lasted until 1918. A large number of my pals are now sleeping in soldiers' graves because of that War. Another very great atrocity committed by the Russians was that they said, "Give us a peace without annexations and without indemnities, a fair peace, a clean peace, not a Carthaginian peace, but one where we can all start afresh." I do not believe there is a statesman in this country with a reputation to lose who does not now realise that the Russians were right and who is not now sorry that we did not have that kind of peace. We are paying a very big price, and perhaps Europe will pay a very big price in the future, (because we did not get the kind of peace that the Bolshevists wanted, and if we could have got it, we should have celebrated our Armistice Day much earlier. Straining at gnats again, we object to the Russian methods of revolution. We do not like physical force. It is a terrible thing to use physical force. This afternoon there was a question concerning conscientious objectors and what a terrible thing it was to allow them to earn a living.

Sir CHARLES OMAN: On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Is the discussion about conscientious objectors or about Russia?

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. Dunnico): I understood the hon. Member was merely making use of an illustration.

9.0 p.m.

Mr. HAYCOCK: Let me inform the hon. Member opposite who is so impatient that I introduced the subject of the conscientious objectors because we object to the Soviet Government on account of the element of force in that Government, because they used force, violence and bloodshed in order to change the Government and to get rid of the Tsardom. You object to force, and you suddenly take the Sermon on the Mount seriously, but you have no objection really to Soviet methods in other directions. I would like any hon. Member following me to tell me any difference
between the methods of Moscow and the methods at Cairo before the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary had has last say. Tell me any difference between the dictatorship at Moscow and that at Cairo, except this much, that there was a whole lot more democracy at Moscow than at Cairo. What is the difference between our methods in India and their methods in Russia? We are now talking about force and unlovely methods of controlling political opponents. What about Italy? What is the difference between the methods of Mussolini and those of Lenin? The difference is that Mussolini came and destroyed democracy, destroyed actual democratic institutions, smashed up the Labour Press, destroyed the co-operatives, and Mussolini from a reactionary Government in this country received, I believe, the Order of the Bath. That is the kind of Order he needed, but no amount of Orders will ever wash his régime clean.
I do not like the use of force, and I do not believe that in this country we require to use force. I believe that we are going to settle all our differences by common sense and reason. I believe in government by consent, but I also know that I do not know of any alternative in Russia, barring force, when the Tsarist régime was there. The Bolshevist Revolution will probably be found to have been more important than we think. Where should be had there been no revolutions here? Revolutions take place because the patience of the people has been exhausted. We do not blame Simon de Montfort or Oliver Cromwell, or the Revolution of 1688. If there had not been the threat of force in this country, we would not be in these seats to-day, and there would not be such a thing as democracy. We should still be talking in terms of divine right. I rejoice in the fact that the Bolsheviks were successful. With regard to propaganda, what do you mean by it? A lot of us use phrases and we do not know what we are talking about. When we talk about propaganda, we should all speak what we believe. I believe that the Bolsheviks or any other people should be allowed the liberty of saying what they like. Our answer to the Bolsheviks, if there be any answer, should be argument, and not Arcos raids. If there be no sense in Bolshevism or Communism or Socialism, let arguments
settle it. Let us answer the Communists here with argument. The Conservative party should be awfully glad that there is a Communist party in this country. If I were a Conservative and wanted Conservatism to thrive, I should subscribe to the Communist party funds, because that party is practically the last argument that the Conservatives have got.
I was going to say a lot more, but I have sympathy with the Member with the great undelivered speech, so I will end by saying this. We have paid a very big price for our prejudices in the past, and we should welcome trade and co-operation with Soviet Russia. It is a good thing for the world that the Soviet Government are there. It will be a bad thing for the world if another Government in Russia were to take their place. We need Russia. By the way, whatever their government, it is not our business; let the Russians find the way out of their own difficulties. The Russians have done awfully well, and if you will take the trouble to read what they have done, you will find that they have taken over a war-battered ruin and inherited chaos and a disease-ridden country, and they have been able to produce order out of chaos. We need Russia more to-day than ever before. If ever there were a time when we could afford to turn down trade and to indulge in prejudices, this is not the time. I am glad beyond words that the Foreign Secretary has had the courage to do the right thing, and I believe that history will more than justify what he has done.

Mr. BOOTHBY: I should be very sorry if an inadvertent glance at the clock on my part has done anything to stem the torrent of oratory of the hon. Member for West Salford (Mr. Haycock), because I would gladly have him go on for some time. I was enjoying his speech very much, although towards the end I felt inclined to go out and form a Fascist party, and shoot as many people as I could see, because of the atmosphere of force and violence which he created. I only want to make one apology. He accused me of defending the Stolypin massacre. My excuse is that I was only five years old at the time it took place.
This is a question of vital importance to the future of this country, and I am in the unfortunate position of having to
do a thing which is not easy, and which any hon. Member must do with great distaste, that is, to take a line different from, the party to which he belongs. All I would beg of hon. Members opposite is that they will not cheer any observations which I make. I intend to vote in the Lobby for the Motion. That must be enough for them. I have, of course, special interest in this question of resuming relations with Russia because of my concern with the herring fishing industry. This industry, which is an important industry, has been going from bad to worse ever since the War; and to-day it is in a most desperate condition. I am certain that, unless we can get back some part of the Russian market which has been lost, the industry cannot be saved. It has been estimated that if Russia to-day took in proportion what she took before the War, we would be able to sell 800,000 more barrels a year. We must export the herrings because they are caught in such quantities and during so short a period that it is not possible to discover new markets which would absorb the catch. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of State, to bear this in mind in the forthcoming negotiations. It is the only industry which is almost entirely dependent for its revival on the Russian market. Resumption of relations with Russia will help other industries; but it is vital to save this industry, and we ought to make it the most important item in any commercial demands we may put forward.
I am therefore in this position. A large body of may constituents in the North, quite independent of party, are extremely anxious to see relations with Russia resumed at the earliest possible moment; and it is my duty to give expression to that desire in the only place where I can, by voting here for the resumption, unless I consider that the national interests or the national security will be jeopardised by such action. I cannot conceive that either our national interests or security are going to be jeopardised by the step which I believe we are going to take to-night. And this brings me to the larger issue. As a matter of fact, I should vote for this whichever constituency I represented. I have thought for a long time that it is highly desirable that relations between
this country and the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics should be restored, and so far as possible, improved. I believe that it is vital for the peace of the world. We are in an entirely different position from the United States of America. They can afford to take up an isolated position. They are rich, and they are far removed from Russia; under any circumstances they cannot establish very close contacts; but we are geographically a part of Europe, and we cannot get away from Europe.
So long as Russia is kept outside the diplomatic barriers by a great Power in Europe like ourselves, the condition of Europe, from the point of view of world peace, is bound to be uneasy. And so long as you have a shadowy, nebulous army, of no known size and about which we have no statistical information whatsoever, lurking behind the eastern frontiers of Europe, how can Europe ever disarm at all. Unless and until we can get Russia not only into the comity of nations, but into the Disarmanent Conferences, and have the facts on the table, disarmament in Europe on any reasonable scale is going to be an absolute impossibility. Nobody can afford to go in for disarmament. The Germans cannot, the Poles cannot, the Rumanians cannot; all that eastern frontier of Europe cannot afford to disarm. We can give up talking about disarmament for good and all unless and until we can bring Russia right into the comity of nations, and until we in this country resume relations with Russia she never will be brought in.
Until quite recently I sincerely believed that it was useless to make the attempt to re-establish diplomatic or commercial relations with Russia, and for this reason. So long as there was any chance, and not so very long ago there was a very good chance, of Bolshevist success in China, we were confronted not by a nation but by a sinister and most formidable world movement—nothing to do with a nation or a Government—but a world movement. That was the position up to about 18 months ago, and it was menacing. If the Bolshevik movement had captured Asia, or the bulk of Asia, I think a clash between it and the forces of western civilisation would, in the long run, have become inevitable, and would always have been imminent. The collapse of
Bolshevism in China, which was referred to by the leader of the Liberal party, has, to my mind, fundamentally altered the whole state of affairs, and the whole problem so far as Russia is concerned. Russia has ceased to be the centre of a formidable world movement, and has become once more a nation, a great nation, and a powerful nation, but still a nation, ruled over by a Government. You can see instances of the tide going back upon the Communist movement all over Asia to-day. In South Russia itself there is a tendency for some of the small States to revert to nationalism. [Interruption.] I take a different view.
The point I am trying to make, and I think it is a reasonable and fair point, is that the Bolsheviks are not any longer a serious menace to us. I think they are now merely a group of politicians trying rather ineffectively to govern another nation. You can deal with a Government and a nation like that, however trying, however exasperating, they are, and I am sure they are going to be just as exasperating in the future as in the past. You can deal with a Government of that kind in a way you cannot deal with a movement which seriously menaces your own civilisation. With such a movement, you can have no dealings except perhaps by recourse to military measures of defence.
We broke off relations with Russia in 1926. It is easy to break off relations. I think that under the circumstances of that time the break was not only inevitable, but necessary, and I supported it. I think it had to come because at that time the movement in China was just about at its height. However, I am not going to argue about the merits of that; it is past history. There is only one thing we know for certain about Life, and that is that nothing can ever stand still. After the break there was a state of more or less suspended animation; and to my mind it is impossible for that state of things to go on. The tide of events in all human affairs moves remorselessly forward in one direction or another; you cannot stop it; and it seems to me that there are only two ways out of the existing situation. You can restore relations and improve relations on the one hand; or you can go to war. In the long run there is nothing between these two things. You cannot stand still. Well, I do not want to go to war.
So far as propaganda is concerned, of course there will be propaganda; there has been for hundreds of years in the past; there will be for hundreds of years to come; and a great nuisance it will be; but is anyone seriously going to say that propaganda of that kind is really a grave menace to the British Empire? I do not for one moment believe that it is. I believe that when there was this great potential movement in Asia, when it showed signs of capturing China, and possibly India, it might have been the greatest menace that we had ever had to face; but I do not believe that is the case to-day. The question we have to put to ourselves upon this propaganda business is, shall we best check and control propaganda by having an Ambassador in Moscow to see what they are up to, or by cutting off relations with them altogether? I think we shall do very much better by having a trained observer in Moscow, in close touch with them and ready to protest—and Heaven knows he is likely to be busy enough in the first year or two—to see what they are doing, and report to us and establish contact on both commercial and political affairs. I believe that is the best way to tackle this problem of propaganda.

Mr. WALLHEAD: There has been a lot of talk about propaganda to-night from the other side. Is it the argument which is put forward that the Communist party in this country must not propagate the theory of Communism?

Mr. BOOTHBY: I do not say that for a moment.

Mr. WALLHEAD: Everybody knows that the theory of Communism includes revolution, and if the Communists of this country propagate their theory of revolution, you cannot say that it is the Russian Government which is behind them every time.

Mr. BOOTHBY: So far as I am concerned, I would never break off relations with Russia because the Communist party of this country was preaching Communism; though, of course, if they were acting under instructions from the Comitern, acting on behalf of the Soviet Government, that might raise another question. But nobody is going to say that a Communist may not say that he is a Communist on every soap box in the country. I do not think anybody on this side would suggest that that should not be allowed.
To turn for a moment to the question of trade. Hon. Members opposite have made a great deal of this, but I cannot say that I am very optimistic about the trade we shall do with Russia in the immediate future. There is no doubt that the economic position of Russia to-day is infinitely worse than it was three years ago. And their credit requirements are proportionately greater. They have to pay more for their credit, and they are finding much more difficulty in getting credit at all. They want between four and five years' commercial credits, which makes it extremely difficult to do business with them on a large scale. I do not say this problem is one which cannot be solved, but many people have been taught by hon. Members opposite to believe that we needed only to restore relations with Russia to be saved—incidentally, in my constituency they promised to do it a fortnight after the Election—and that trade would at once come back. A lot of people will be disillusioned. However so many people are going to be disillusioned by hon. Gentlemen opposite that I think this will be swamped in the general mass of disillusionment.
But I think hon. Members opposite will agree that one of our main problems in this country is to try and bring consuming power all over the world into some closer relationship with productive capacity. Very well, you have in Russia a tremendous potential market, with 150,000,000 consumers, and we in this country have got vast productive capacity. I do not see that we are in a position at the moment to neglect any possible chance of extending our markets overseas for our produce, or of trying to close the gap between potential production and consumption. I do not think that either this country or the world at the present time is in a state to allow 140,000,000 or 150,000,000 of people, living in a vast, fertile country like Russia, to remain as a kind of stagnant pool, isolated, and having no commercial relations whatsoever with the outside world. I am quite certain that somebody ought to try and stir that pool—we ought to stir that pool; and I believe that the best way of getting some sort of sense into the Soviet Government is to establish purely trading relations with her as quickly as we possibly can. I believe that is the best way from their point of view,
and from ours; and that is why I do feel that it is desirable to resume relations now.
In order to get business re-started the City of London will have to grant certain credits to the Soviet Government. There was an idea some time ago that the Midland Bank were going to grant a substantial amount. I do not see how anybody in the City of London could be asked to risk any money in Russia without there being a resumption of diplomatic relations with Russia. I was glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman that His Majesty's Government are not going themselves to pledge the taxpayer's money. It is not necessary or desirable. We have lent quite enough money to other countries during the last 20 years. But I do think it is necessary to take the step that the right hon. Gentleman is taking in order to give the City the amount of confidence that it must have if it is to lend money on an adequate scale to the Soviet Government. We want trade desperately: we want more export markets; and if we can do £10,000,000 worth of trade with Russia next year it will put more people into employment than all the schemes o£the Lord Privy Seal. The hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Strachey) said he contemplated the sale of £40,000,000's worth of goods to Russia per annum. I think that is an exaggeration; but if it were possible what an advantage it would be! It would bring Russia third on our list of export markets; and it is not beyond the bounds of possibility, if things go well, that something along those lines might ultimately take place. If there is the faintest chance of anything like that happening, can we in our present position afford to throw it away unless it seriously jeopardises our safety?
In conclusion, I want to make one complaint. I greatly admired the way in which the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs handled the League Assembly. I cannot say that I have admired at any stage his handling of this particular question during the last five months; and I express a pious hope that he may handle the negotiations now about to take place a little better. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Oh, yes! All these obscure shufflings and manceuvrings that have been going on for five months past are absolutely incom-
prehensible. I would ask the Under-Secretary, as he is going to reply, to state what the game really was?

Mr. A. HENDERSON: There was no game.

Mr. BOOTHBY: The Leader of the Opposition said it was cricket. I think it was a sillier game than that. Anyway we lost it. And I do not think we need have played it at all. I believe that if the right hon. Gentleman had gone resolutely about the business we could have had relations with Russia on better terms from our point of view and without loss of prestige within 10 days of the Government's taking office. I do not think all this manoeuvring was really necessary.
But that does not affect the main question before the House, which is this: are we going to resume diplomatic relations with Russia and exchange Ambassadors now, or are we not? If we decide not, the Government would go out of office. I think we ought to resume relations with Russia for the reasons I have attempted to give to the House; and, secondly, I think the time has not yet come to remove His Majesty's Government. I hope the Secretary of State will not be offended with me for having criticised his handling of this affair. I do believe that he has a good chance of bringing off a successful and, I hope, a final conclusion to the negotiations that lie ahead. They will be tough and difficult but he can do it; and for my part I hope with all my heart he will do it, and that we shall get a commercial agreement as well, and a debt settlement. I wish him all luck in these negotiations; but in the meantime, believing as I do that we ought to resume relations with Russia, and that we ought to wait a bit before we turn out His Majesty's present advisers, I cannot see that I have any option but to go into the Lobby in support of the Government tonight.

Mr. WISE: As I have had rather special opportunities in a professional capacity, as the adviser of the Russian Co-operative movement, I venture to address the House on the matter. But I want to point out, lest there be any misapprehension on the score, that I have no right or power to speak for, nor have I any responsibility for any political action of, any organisation of any kind whatsoever in Russia, nor is it my desire
to attempt to assume any such responsibility. I approach this subject entirely in the interests of those whom I represent. What is the point before the House? Shorn of all the trimmings of religion and past history and prejudice this way and prejudice that way, the simple question before the House is whether we should continue the policy which was pursued by the last Government, or bring into operation a new set of relations between ourselves and Russia. The last Government in a pet decided to proceed as if Russia did not exist. Their policy was embodied in the idea that we should carry on without any relations with that country, that it did not vitally matter, and I presume that they had certain objectives which they desired to obtain; though I suspect that there was a good deal of truth in what was said by the Leader of the Liberal party that they were pushed into their policy without very careful consideration of what its effects would be. But hon. Members opposite have made no secret at all of what they expected to result. Politically, I suppose they intended that, by severing British relations with Russia, they might bring pressure to bear on the Government to limit or control the actions of the Communist International, to persuade or force the Russian Government and the other organisations in Moscow to adopt a more friendly attitude towards this country.
What are the facts? We have heard them from the mouths of Members of the Opposition to-day. There is a constant series of complaints of the action of the Communist International now in this country and in other countries, and especially in Asia. On their own showing, then, if that was their objective, it has completely failed. Moreover, I should have said from my own experience and the experience of everybody who has been in contact with affairs in Russia during the last three or four years that the effect of their action has been to lend a handle to those who wished to set up in Russia an attitude of mind and an agitation hostile and extremely dangerous to this country, which otherwise they would not have had. The course of the last three or four years have been marked by a constant and steady growth in that feeling of hostility towards this country for which we shall have to pay very
dearly. It has been accompanied by a steady Russian union towards the rest of the world which is certainly not hopeful for the cause of peace.

Major KINDERSLEY: What is the Russian nation?

Mr. WISE: The Russian nation can only be discovered by those who come in real contact with the people in Russia. The other objective of the late Government was to bring pressure to bear on Russia by an economic and financial boycott so as to get better terms in regard to the debt and other financial transactions with this country and other countries. There was an exploitation in certain quarters which was not without a good deal of substance, as I discovered from my own acquaintance with continental bankers in France and bankers in America, who were asked to join with us in a sort of boycott of Russian trade. I am aware that when our Ministers broke with Russia there was some talk about their not desiring to interfere with trade, but every commercial man knows how hollow was that pretence, and we all know the immediate effect of that break on Russian trade.
Throughout the continent of Europe in financial circles there was a belief that the British Government desired to bring the other countries into a boycott of Russian trade, and what has been the result? The rest of Europe refused and no country followed the example of the last Government. In 1924 our trade with Russia practically equalled the trade of Germany and the United States. In the course of last year our sales to Russia dropped to one-fourth of what they were in 1924. In the meantime both the sales of Germany and the United States have more than doubled. In July last American sales to Russia were nearly as much as this country sold to Russia in the previous 12 months. Consequently, so far as that exploitation was concerned, it utterly failed.
There seemed to be a belief in some quarters that in one way or another our action would bring the Soviet Government down, but in spite of what was said by an hon. Member opposite I say, speaking with some knowledge of the economic position inside Russia, that, judged by any ordinary tests, the economic position in Russia now is
stronger than it was three or four years ago. It is true that the financial position is difficult, but that is because of the shortage of capital and the concentration of their reserves on pensions for industry and agricultural producers. The Russians are admittedly short of capital. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] Because Russia is an agricultural country which in the past has depended for its development on capital from abroad. That is the position of Canada, South Africa, and Australia, and it is the position of every South American country. That was the position of Russia before the War, and it is the position of every other country since the War except ourselves, and, I think, America.
Other countries have had to rely upon foreign capital for reconstruction and repairing the damage of the War and the revival of industry. Russia is the only country which, since the War, has not had any foreign investments, and it is almost the only country which since the War has raised its production agriculturally and industrially to more than its pre-War figure. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] Those are facts which hon. Members opposite may dislike, but they are essential factors in the whole discussion. Our previous policy, so far as its objectives were concerned, and so far as it was not a mere act of bad temper on the part of the last Government, has failed economically. That in itself is a sufficient justification for a change of policy. Hon. Members opposite ask us why we should bother about recognising Russia, when the United States manage to get on very well with Russia without any formal diplomatic relations. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), who leads the Liberal party, gave reasons why the circumstances of America in relation to Russia differ from our own. Let me give one or two other instances which cut away the force of that argument.
In the first place the relations between the United States and Russia have been uniformly friendly. United States manufacturers have not been troubled by a Churchill, a Curzon or a "Jix" during the years which have passed since the War. The United States has always pursued informally, whatever may have been its former policy and relations, a
policy which has produced good will and not bad will. When Russia was prostrate in the days of the famine the United States appointed its present President to organise relief. The United States Government allocated millions of money to relieve destitution, famine, and disease in Russia. The result is that throughout Russia that fact is remembered with gratitude, contrasted with the policy of His Majesty's Ministers at the time, who at the risk of the death of millions of Russian peasants, and in order to attain some political end in the direction of the payment of old debts and old claims, pursued quite a different policy.
Those policies are constantly contrasted and Russia has not forgotten the contrast. It is perfectly true that the United States has had no diplomatic relations with Russia, but there has been a mass of friendly informal relations. There have been Russian trading organisations in New York; there has been for years a Russian unofficial mission in Washington, living in infinitely more friendly relations with the Departments of the American Government than ever was the case in this country. For example, visas for Russian engineers and business men have not been withheld, whereas constantly it has been impossible for responsible Russian buyers to reach this country. Within the last week I saw that arrangements had been made for 35 American engineers to go to Russia to help the Russians to restore and reorganise their mining industry, while at the same time 10 or more Russian engineers per annum are going to America to learn American methods. The great firm of Ford, to take another illustration, has had hundreds of Russian workmen in America, going through its works. The last Home Secretary would have had a fit if such a proposition had been made with regard to this country. In that way, and in numerous other ways, personal and friendly relations between America and Russia have been facilitated, whereas every conceivable obstacle has been placed in the way here.
I will give another reason why we should change our policy. The last speaker referred to a particular trade, and said that in that trade we were absolutely dependent on the possibility of the revival of the Russian market. He spoke about the trade that he knew, and
assumed that that trade was peculiar; but there are many other trades in this country in much the same position. There is the agricultural machinery industry. During the last two or three years, Russia has bought millions of pounds worth of agricultural machinery in America and in Germany. Its inability to get its experts here, to get confidence here, and the uniformly unfriendly attitude of the last Government, have made it almost impossible to place orders in this country. Then there is the textile machinery trade, there is all the range of trades concerned with textiles and clothing, electrical machinery, and a dozen other things. In all of these cases the demand in Russia at this moment is enormous. There is no doubt about the need and desire of the peasant to get tractors, ploughs, reaping machines, and every kind of machinery of the sort that this country could and would supply.
When I am asked, "Can Russia pay for them? Will they be paid for?" I am entitled to cite two things. In the first place, in these last 10 years, without any setback, despite harvest difficulties, despite the actions of Members of the last Government and of other Governments year by year, the Russian export of commodities for sale on world markets has increased. Russia's power to pay is determined year by year by her exports. This year they reached the quite respectable total of approximately £90,000,000. Last year they were about 20 per cent. less, and the year before that they were still less; and there is no reason to doubt that year by year these figures will increase. Russia's export capacity depends upon the steady revival of her industry and agriculture internally, and there is no country in the world which can point to an increase in industrial production year by year, for the last three years in succession, of from 15 to 20 per cent. per annum, and boast, as she can boast, that this has happened entirely through her own exertions and from her own resources. If it is a question of the power of Russia to' pay, there can, I submit, on any fair and dispassionate examination of the progress made and the possibilities for the future, be no possible doubt at all.
In regard to whether Russia is willing to pay, I have heard hon. Gentlemen opposite say, "Oh, yes, they will pile up their credits, and then suddenly they
will refuse to pay again." In the first place I would like to remind hon. Gentlement of an answer given, I think, by a Minister in the last Government, to a question in regard to the number of bad debts made by the British Government in connection with the Export Credits Act and other loans in the last 10 years in the operation of these schemes. In these last 10 years, of the 43 countries, apart from Russia, to which such credits have been given, there was not one in which bad debts have not been made by His Majesty's Government, and there is not one in which bad debts have not been made by British traders. The only country in Europe in regard to which in the last 10 years, not a single bad debt has been made by any British trader, is Soviet Russia, and during that time there has been a turnover of trade running into hundreds of millions. I submit that that is a fact which this House cannot ignore; it is a fact which the business firms concerned in this and other countries fully recognise.
I submit that for long enough relations between this country and Russia have been tested by the passions, by the emotions, by the animosities of 10 years ago, and it is time we looked at this question in a new spirit, in a businesslike, sensible way. We have but to create such relations between the two countries that it will be possible for those strong elements in Russian opinion which desire to be friendly with us to make it clear that it is well worth their while to be friendly with us. I submit that that is the only effective way of dealing with the question of propaganda. With regard to debts and these other questions, the only possible method of reaching a settlement is by friendly and co-operative discussion across the table in the manner proposed by the Foreign Secretary. With regard generally to the question of debts, and all the other questions which have been raised in this discussion, I submit that it is time that this House paid as much attention in this matter to the interests of South Wales as to the interests of South Kensington.

Sir RENNELL RODD: At this very late hour I shall not occupy the House for more than a very few moments. There have been a great many speeches to-night, and a great deal of oratory on both sides,
either pointing out the iniquities of the Soviet Government or belauding its admirable disposition; but I think that all these questions are really hardly what we meant to discuss to-night. I find that we are asked, in the Motion before the House, to approve the procedure for the settlement of questions outstanding between the two countries, while, on the other hand, we are invited by the Amendment to deplore the failure of His Majesty's Government to maintain the conditions which the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary laid down for the resumption of diplomatic relations. I should have been quite happy if the Amendment had ended at the words "Diplomatic relations," and it is on that point that I wish to speak. It might, perhaps, be considered unnecessary, in a Motion of this kind, to go into the question of procedure, but procedure and usage and tradition is not without its value as a safeguard.
At one time, at the beginning of this discussion, I was curious to know from whom came the initiative for the resumption of relations. Since I have read the White Paper, and even some time before, from observations which came to me, if not absolutely at first-hand, at secondhand from the people to whom they were made in continental countries—from agents of the Soviet there who were already, in January and February, assured that, as soon as the elections took place in England, and when a new Labour Government was returned to Office, the first step they would take would be to renew relations—it seems to me that there can be no longer any great reason to inquire from whom the initiative came. I feel that there has been, so far as I can see, not only an initiative here but even an importunity, from the way in which initiative was met when it was first put to the Soviet Government. In all the diplomatic history and precedents I could think of, where there has been a rupture of the nations between two countries it has been unusual, and I should say unprecedented, that the party to whom the injury had been done, and who was compelled to take measures for his own preservation, should be the one to take the initiative and ask the other party to kiss and make friends.
I will leave on one side the expressions of sympathy that the Soviet Government
have received from a few individual Members on the other side, I think the same Members who have suggested that when we are about to renew relations with it it would be perhaps desirable that we should suppress that very small allocation which is given for the Secret Service and for protecting ourselves against intrigues in other countries. I sincerely believe that hon. Members opposite believe that, if we can renew relations, it will go far to improve our commercial position with Russia and that we shall develop before long an important trade there. I believe them to be very optimistic but I think the position is a laudable one and I would ask them at the same time, in view of the criticisms I have made of what I call initiative and importunity, to ask themselves whether, besides that material advantage, which to me seems to be of a shadowy kind, we have not also to think in a matter of this kind of national dignity. I may be old-fashioned in speaking of national dignity but it appears to me in the whole of this rupture that the attitude adopted by the United States and France has been the dignified attitude to adopt. If we are going to sacrifice principle and precedent and all these things for possible tangible, material advantage, we must not resent it when those nations which have retained their dignified position revert to the old jibe and describe us as a nation of shopkeepers.

10.0 p. m.

Sir AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: This Debate has spread over a very wide ground and, listening to some of the speeches, one might suppose the only question we had to discuss was the herring trade, or the development of other British industries, without any regard to the political consequences of the action the Government are taking. What has struck me in the Debate is the extent to which hon. Members ignore and some wilfully close their eyes to the facts of past experience. I myself was a Member of the Government of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) when they signed the Trade Agreement. I thought at that time that it was an arguable proposition that to bring Russia back into the comity of nations would lead her to observe the recognised practices of international relations. I agreed that it was worth while to make the experiment and
I was a Member of the Government that made it. Our experience was that, whilst Russia took every advantage she could obtain under that Agreement, she failed to keep the pledged troth by which alone the Agreement had been secured, and it was with her failure to keep that Agreement definitely before them that the last Labour Government, instead of calling them to book and insisting on the fulfilment of obligations, proceeded on the same assumption that, by welcoming them more freely, by recognising them more fully, you would cause them to cease their nefarious practices, and gave them diplomatic recognition. The Agreement, again repeated, to abstain from propaganda was broken from the day it was signed, and continued to be broken until the day when we broke off diplomatic relations with the Soviet Government. The hon. Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Wise) spoke a moment ago as if the only complaint this country had at that time was against the action of the Third International, but, in the White Paper which give the reasons for breaking off negotiations, it was shown that the Chargé d'Affaires of the Soviet Government in this country was himself directly implicated in anti-British propaganda, and that the agent in China for whom the Soviet Government had disclaimed all responsibility had received his instructions directly from Moscow.
I think it was a mistake on the part of the Prime Minister to give all that he had to give before he had ensured the fulfilment of the Russian Government's previous promises, but, when we came in, I desired, in this as in other matters, to preserve as far as was possible the continuity of British policy, and I did my utmost, though I would never have initiated diplomatic relations in the circumstances in which the right hon. Gentleman did, to maintain them. The Government of which I was a member exercised a forbearance under extreme provocation which broke down only when our hospitality was openly abused. It is in the light of those facts that we have to examine what the Government ask us to approve to-day.
I wish, first, to ask the hon. Gentleman who is going to reply to me not to forget the question put by my right hon. Friend as to whether the Government have it in contemplation to extend diplomatic privileges to anything but the Soviet
Embassy, if that be here received, strictly so limited. That is a matter of great importance, for the extension of diplomatic privileges to the Soviet trade agent was a cause of great embarrassment, and any such extension of diplomatic privileges, wholly one-sided as it was, was an experience which we ought not to be asked to undergo a second time.
I want to deal, very briefly, with questions important in themselves, but less important in my view than the great political issue which is before us. It is obvious from the speeches made in support of the Government to-day that the hope of Members in the majority—the combined majority—is for a great extension of trade. Incidentally, the Government hope to secure a settlement in some form or another of the debts which the Russian Government owes to the Government of this country and which Russia owes to private individuals in this country. As regards the debts of the Russian Government, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I say that I have not perfect confidence in him, but I am convinced that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will see that we do not obtain less from Russia than he asked of our other Allies. [Interruption.] Let him get what he got from Italy; that is something, at any rate. What I care most about is not the exact amount of money which we may receive, but the recognition of the public law of the world that when a Government inherits from a previous Government, it inherits its obligations and duties as well as its rights. [Interruption.] I hope hon. Members opposite will allow me to proceed. I have agreed to divide the remaining time between that side of the House and this. If I fail to keep that bargain, it will only be because I am interrupted.
That is all I propose to say about debts. As regards trade, the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has himself admitted that trade could be conducted perfectly well without diplomatic relations. It has been so conducted and extended with other countries which have not diplomatic relations with us. Why, then is it supposed that the mere resumption of diplomatic relations will give us this great expansion of trade? It rests, I think, on one fallacy and on one fact, and I do not know whether the fallacy or the fact is
the more significant and the more dangerous. The fallacy is that the restriction of Russian purchases depends solely upon Government action. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs developed at considerable length the thesis of the immense trade which we should do. He said that nothing stood between us and it but this unfortunate breach of diplomatic relations. That was not always the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman. I quote from his speech in 1922, made on the 26th July of that year. Talking of the conditions in Russia, he said:
It is idle to talk about 'recognition' in these conditions until you restore the country. … My right hon. Friend, the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) asked: 'Why you do not give recognition to Russia first, and all the rest will follow?'
just like my right hon. Friend asked to-night. Still quoting the right hon. Member for Platting he went on:
Send an Ambassador to Moscow, to be followed by a train of bankers, financiers, manufacturers, traders and so on.
Then comes the answer of my right hon. Friend:
If you sent out the best Ambassador we possess, he would not be followed by a single banker or trader until the necessary conditions were established, and to say otherwise is really misleading the public.
That is the fallacy which underlay a good many of the speeches this evening. The danger is this: Trade with this country has not been limited because the Government of Russia had not credit available in this country, because we have always purchased more from Russia than Russia has purchased from us, and she therefore has always had a balance which could have been spent here if she had wished it. Why has it not been spent? Because trade is not free in Russia. Trade is a function of government and an instrument of policy, because the Russian Government have used their control of trade to say: "Unless you accept our political terms, orders shall not be placed with you." The danger of the right hon. Gentleman's action is that he submits to this blackmail, and encourages, as every submission to blackmail does, a repetition of it.
One observation of the right hon. Gentleman I heard with great satisfaction: He stated that he wished to make it clear that the Government do not intend to recommend Parliament to
pledge the credit of the British taxpayer to any loan raised by the Soviet Government. I gladly acknowledge and thank him for that. The Government have learnt something since 1924. But I observe that in the agreement which they made in 1924 the provisions of the chapter dealing with the loan and with trade are described as constituting a single and indivisible unit, and I imagine that, when the carrot is withdrawn, the animal will gallop less willingly.
The right hon. Gentleman finds it difficult to imagine on what grounds we put forward our Amendment. He said, as he always did, that he has maintained every promise and every undertaking which the Government gave. How is it possible to maintain that somebody has not changed his attitude? Why were the negotiations broken off at the end of July and beginning of August last?

Mr. A. HENDERSON: I told you.

Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Why have they succeeded and resulted in an agreement now? Because somebody has changed. Who is it?

Mr. HENDERSON: I told you.

Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: The right hon. Gentleman tells us that it is the Soviet Government. The Soviet Government say the contrary, and, what is more, the right hon. Gentleman's White Paper proves it. The Soviet Ambassador handed to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on 31st July a Note, in which he said:
The fact that the British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has stated … that it is impossible for the British Government to re-establish normal relations between the two countries before the solution of the questions outstanding between them
makes negotiations impossible. What did the right hon. Gentleman do when he received that Note? Did he say "You are under a complete misapprehension. I never intended to make it a condition that these questions should be settled before the exchange of Ambassadors." No, Sir; he accepted them. He explained that it had been his hope that at least the principles on which a settlement could be worked should have been denned before he met Parliament again. The principles have not been defined now. None of the questions have been settled. The Soviet Government have maintained
their attitude. The right hon. Gentleman has surrendered to their insistence. Even more important in my opinion is the question of hostile propaganda. The pledge which the Government gave was explicit. There is no difference between us when I say that the pledge was explicit, and that it was that the conditions laid down by the right hon. Gentleman in his Note to Mr. Rakovski would be conditions essential to any settlement. The defence of the Government to-day—and I must say it took me completely by surprise—is that that pledge is fully and adequately met by the inclusion in the Protocol of Clause 7, which provides that on the exchange of Ambassadors the pledge with regard to propaganda contained in the Draft Treaty, 1924, will be reciprocally confirmed.
The question which I invite hon. Members to put to themselves is whether both parties understand the pledge of 1924 in the same sense? It is for this purpose, I think, important to recall what has been the previous attitude of the Soviet Government. The right hon. Gentleman said in explicit terms to-day that propaganda by the Third International was included under the terms of this pledge, and that the Government would insist upon the observance of the pledge by the Soviet. He was asked, "Did you inform Mr. Dovgalevski of your interpretation?" He replied that he had. He was asked, "Did Mr. Dovgalevski accept it?" He replied, "He said he would repeat it to his Government." Have the Soviet Government accepted it? Have they made any reply? It is vital. This statement is not on record, so far as we know, between the two Governments. So far as we know and so far as we can perceive, from what the right hon. Gentleman has said, it has been reported to the Soviet Government, and ignored by them. It is not safe to proceed on that basis, where one Government attaches one meaning to the condition of ratification and the other Government attaches a different meaning. Without an express avowal by the Soviet Government that they have changed their view in accepting the interpretation of the right hon. Gentleman, it is incredible that any such change should have taken place, and it is impossible to believe that this new pledge will have any more value that the old one.
I do not want to trouble the House with lengthy quotations, but I would recall the following statement made on the 13th July, 1926. I spoke to their Charge d'Affaires on this subject, and he replied:
As to what I had said about the Communist International, it was impossible for the Soviet Government to control its activities or interfere with its liberties. It would be contrary to freedom as understood in Soviet Russia.
Freedom to attack other nations is apparently the only freedom which is understood in Russia. The following statement was made by Mr. Litvinoff on 26th July, 1927:
The Soviet Government declared then and there that it could, not assume responsibility for the acts of an international organisation directed and controlled by delegates of the Communist party of different countries.
In other words, the Soviet Government have placed repeatedly on record their disavowal of all responsibility for and of the power to control the Third International. Now, the right hon. Gentleman says that he has a pledge that they will control it and will prevent it from repeating the acts of which he complains. I say to him, Get that pledge countersigned expressly by the Soviet Government before you proceed further! If he puts the question directly and simply to them they will tell him now, as they have told the British Government on every previous occasion, that they will not and cannot control the Third International, and that they do not interpret the pledge of the Treaty of 1924 in the same sense as the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman has not been wholly fortunate in the arguments used by his supporters in this Debate. It is, I think, a case in which he might pray to be saved from his friends. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs came forward as his most loyal and eager supporter.

HON. MEMBERS: And made a good speech.

Mr. MILLS: And he had the courage of his convictions.

Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: So, I hope, have we all. I impute no motives. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs defended the action of the Government by reasons which are wholly destructive of the position taken up by
the Secretary of State. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs said that we all know—several speakers have repeated the same statement—that whatever you say and whatever they say, propaganda will go on. You say it cannot go on, it shall not go on. Your supporters tell you that it will. Then the right hon. Gentleman hopes that the Foreign Secretary, having renewed relations with Russia, will not be so foolish as to sever them merely because the pledge not to propagate hostilities is broken; and the Secretary of State, who formally declared that the Government would tolerate no such propaganda, nodded approval to the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am sorry to take up the time of the right hon. Gentleman with an interruption, but this is rather important. All I did was to plead that the Foreign Secretary should display the same forbearance as the late Lord Curzon and the right hon. Member himself displayed, and that he should not at the first infringement respond to the appeal that was made to break off relations.

Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: I have generally understood that a recidiviste receives shorter shrift than a first offender. I confess that the only thing that remains obscure to me at the end of this Debate is: who is it that is being deceived. Have the Government been fooled by the Soviet Government or are they consciously trying to fool the country?

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Dalton): Those of us who sat in the last Parliament have noted a certain difference in the tone and temperature of this Debate as compared with the tone and temperature of the Debates on Russia in the Parliament which was elected on the Zinovieff letter and which was consumed in the smoke of polling day last May. In the last Parliament, whenever Russia was mentioned the Conservative party had a night out, thoroughly enjoyed themselves, and at the end of the evening had a majority in the Division Lobby. Tonight the position is different. To-night it is we who have enjoyed our night out very much, and we have noticed that many of the speeches made by hon. Members on the other side have been pitched
in a very minor key. We have not had quite the same assurance, not quite the same, I hope I may say it without offence, truculence, not quite the same vigour in the denunciation of the Russian policy of the Labour party which, as the Foreign Secretary has shown, has been a consistent policy for 10 years. We have missed the contribution which the hon. and gallant Member for Handsworth (Commander O. Locker-Lampson), is wont to make on Russian Debates. It has been his misfortune not to take part in the Debate to-night. May I recall to the House a speech he delivered on the 26th May, 1927, when amid great hilarity the Reds were cleared out. The hon. and gallant Member said:
The Communist State in Russia, enthroned and strong though it be there now, could not continue and will not continue if we do our duty to-night and throw out Russian recognition. Indeed it can be said that British recognition alone has kept that monstrous idol upon its legs. This Debate, therefore, is historic. For if we do our duty to-night Bolshevism as a world force is doomed."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th May, 1927; cols. 2255–6, Vol. 206.]
In the result it was not Bolshevism, but the Tory Government which cleared out the Reds, which was doomed. We meet to-night in other circumstances. When this Debate concludes and when the Government appeal for the judgment of the House on the policy which has been expounded by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary to-day, we have little doubt that there will be a reversal of the foolish act of policy committed in 1927 and supported by speeches of the quality of that which I have just quoted. The Leader of the Opposition put certain questions in the course of his speech and I shall endeavour to answer them as directly as he put them. May I note in passing that the Leader of the Opposition said—and we were glad to hear it—that, whatever might be the attitude of other elements in his party, he himself made no accusation against my right hon. Friend of breach of faith and no accusation of repudiation of pledges. He merely wondered why my right hon. Friend and the Government were in such a hurry.
That last question can be simply answered. We are in a hurry in order to catch up with all the time that has been lost during the last four years in many spheres both of domestic and
foreign policy. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is not the way to do things."] The hon. Gentleman opposite who interrupts and the Government which he supported in the last Parliament—if he was here—are good judges of how not to do things. Now let me try with the permission of hon. Members opposite to answer the questions courteously put by the Leader of the Opposition. He asked what was the position with regard to the Trade Agreement of 1921; would it fall to be revived automatically if Ambassadors were exchanged, or, if not, would it be revived by us deliberately? That Trade Agreement was terminated on 26th May, 1927, when the previous Government took their decision to break diplomatic relations. Parts of it to-day are out of date. It was drafted in 1921 under conditions which have considerably changed in the intervening eight years. Many parts, as I say, are out of date and it will not be revived automatically, nor do the Government propose to revive it in the form in which it was previously entered into. Our proposal rather is to negotiate de novo a commercial treaty covering many matters dealt with in the Trade Agreement of 1921 and, possibly, certain other matters not dealt with therein, but which in the intervening period of time have become suitable for embodiment in a commercial treaty.
He asked me, in the next place, "Would the Treaty of 1924 be the basis for a new agreement and a new Treaty?" The answer to that again, as to the last question, is that parts of that Treaty of 1924 are no longer applicable. In particular, the Foreign Secretary to-day made it very clear that His Majesty's Government do not propose to recommend to Parliament to pledge the credit of the British taxpayer in respect of a loan raised by the Soviet Government. In so far as that was a proposal embodied in the former Treaty which we do not propose to re-embody in any new Treaty, it is evident that the Treaty of 1924 would be only an imperfect basis of discussion. Certain other changes, no doubt, in the Treaty of 1924 will be necessitated by the march of events and the change of circumstances. On the other hand, certain parts of the Treaty would form a quite useful basis for discussion in the near future.
I was asked, "Are the Articles 6 to 13 in the Treaty of 1924 to he regarded as an indivisible whole?" Those include the provision for the guaranteed loan, and consequently the answer to that question is evidently no. We shall endeavour, when we enter into negotiations, if the House shall give us authority to-night, to re-discuss the various subjects dealt with in those Articles in the light of these new conditions, one of which I have indicated. May I mention in passing, in reference to the very able speech of my hon. Friend the member for Aston (Mr. Strachey), a very able and delightful maiden speech, that he threw out a suggestion that it might be desirable to devise some new scheme, some half-way house, as it were, between the Export Credits Scheme and the old Trade Facilities Act. That seems to me a very interesting suggestion, which he did not develop in any detail, but there are, of course, many alternative modes of finance which would not offend against the principle laid down by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. I have no doubt that all those possibilities will be explored and examined to see how far they are practicable at the present time. The House will, of course, remember, so far as the present Export Credits Scheme is concerned, that the Government have already extended that scheme to cover Russian trade as well as trade with other countries, and the House will also remember that, so far as trade facilities are concerned, the old Trade Facilities Act has lapsed and that nothing can be put in its place without new legislation, as to which, of course, I am not in a position to give any undertaking to-night.
I was asked also by the Leader of the Opposition, and the right hon. Gentleman who spoke last emphasised the question, to say something on the subject of diplomatic privileges and immunities. Quite evidently, that is to some extent a question of detail, although to some extent a question of principle as well. [Laughter.] If hon. Members find that difficult to understand, it is probably due to a blissful ignorance of the political and economic conditions prevailing in the Soviet Union. I think I may, however, say that it is not the intention of the Government that diplomatic privileges and immunities should be unduly extensive. [An HON. MEMBER: "What does
that mean?"] That is a matter for the negotiators to consider; and let me remind the hon. Member that whenever the treaty which we hope to conclude after the interchange of Ambassadors has taken place, and negotiations have been completed, whenever that treaty is signed, it will be brought to this House before ratification, and that an opportunity will then arise for the hon. Member who thought that that was a very amusing phrase to get up in his place and to discuss whether or not he considers that the privileges and immunities which will have been granted under the treaty are unduly extensive. That will then be a legitimate subject for intelligent debate.

Mr. G. BALFOUR: Is it suggested that wider powers should be given to the Soviet Government and that their diplomatic representative would have further facilities than any of the other recognised Ambassadors?

Mr. DALTON: I am quite sure that the hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. G. Balfour), who is a member of the Anglo-Russian Committee which has been examining trade conditions in Russia, and has made an interesting Report, appreciates the fact that in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics trade is a State function. It may be argued, as no doubt the Soviet representatives will argue, in the negotiations which follow, that that would entitle them to a somewhat—[Interruption.] I was endeavouring to reply to a question put to me by one of the hon. Gentleman's own friends, and I shall be obliged if he will endeavour to allow me to answer. If he does not wish me to answer, I will pass on. The hon. Member for Hampstead has put this question to me, and the answer is that no doubt the representatives of the Soviet Government will argue that they are entitled, by reason of the facts stressed by the late Foreign Secretary, to a somewhat more extensive range of diplomatic privileges and immunities than are States where trade is not a State function, and we shall have to consider their arguments on their merits. In the light of the principle which I have laid down, that the privileges granted must not be unduly extensive, we shall consider any arguments that they will put up, and the result of our consideration of them will be embodied in a treaty which will come back to this House before it can finally foe ratified.
The broad ground on which we have been challenged is whether or not we have fulfilled the conditions laid down by the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary in earlier Debates. It has been maintained, and I certainly maintain it, and in my judgment the majority of this House believes that we are right in maintaining it, that these conditions have been fulfilled, and amply fulfilled. With regard to propaganda, we have been better than our word. We have obtained a guarantee in very wide terms before the resumption of full diplomatic relations, and before the exchange of ambassadors has taken effect. Under Article 7 of the Protocol of 3rd October, we have secured from the Soviet Government an undertaking that, as soon as ambassadors are exchanged, they will implement a pledge in terms taken from the Treaty of 1924. The late Foreign Secretary said that in respect of these matters we have been guilty of a surrender, and he quoted in support of that the third document in the White Paper which is the translation of a note handed by M. Dovgalevski to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on 31st July, 1929. We do not accept that note as giving an accurate account of what was said to M. Dovgalevski by my right hon. Friend. Those who have read this correspondence carefully will of course have noticed that the invitation from His Majesty's Government to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was an invitation
to send a responsible representative to London in order to discuss with the Foreign Secretary direct the most expeditious procedure for reaching as rapidly as possible a friendly and mutually satisfactory settlement.
And so on. It is evident that M. Dovgalevski, possibly owing to his imperfect knowledge of the language in which the conversation was carried on—[Laughter.] Such difficulties are not unknown in diplomatic conversations with persons of another nationality. It is possible that M. Dovgalevski was not quite able to appreciate the point put to him by my right hon. Friend. I do not know whether that is the explanation or not, but it is a possible explanation. [Interruption.] No doubt the hon. Gentleman would have been able to carry on a most intelligent conversation in Russian if he had been conducting the negotiations. The point we desire to
emphasise is that that (statement by M. Dovgalevski was a misrepresentation, no doubt quite well intentioned, but, still, a misrepresentation of the view taken by my right hon. Friend, as explained very clearly in the first document in this White Paper. "The most expeditious procedure" was what was to be discussed, and in the course of time it was possible to make that clear, and in the course of time we secured an agreement by the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics to a pledge on propaganda before ever Ambassadors were exchanged. I wish again to emphasise that. Hon. Members may say this agreement is not worth much, but we have got this agreement referring to propaganda before Ambassadors are exchanged, and we have also got the agreement embodied in the Protocol of 3rd October laying down the procedure for dealing with a very large number of outstanding questions between the two countries. In view of that I think I am entitled to repeat that, so far as our pledge concerning propaganda is concerned, we have been better than our word.
It has been the custom in these Debates to quote past utterances by leading Members of all parties. I shall only be following that tradition if I refer briefly to the speech made by the right hon. Gentleman who was Foreign Secretary in the last Government on 25th June, 1926. He was resisting a proposal from the "die-hard" section of his own party to break off relations with Russia at that time, and he said:
The issue is, 'Shall we break off relations which have now existed for some time; shall we terminate an Agreement which has been in force?' I believe that to answer those questions in the affirmative would be no good to us, would give us no weapon for fighting disorder or disloyalty or revolution within our own borders, would create division where we seek union, and would in its echoes abroad increase the uncertainty, increase the fears, increase the instability of European conditions, which it is and ought to be our chief object to remove."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th June, 1926; col. 777, Vol. 197.]
So spoke the late Foreign Secretary on 25th June, 1926, in reply to his own "die-hards," his own extremists, if I may use a word sometimes applied to hon. Members on this side of the House, his own wild men. In June, 1926, he withstood his extreme right wing; but not for long was that victory secured. A year later
he was defeated and, to use his own words, compelled to surrender to his own extremists. What he said on the 25th June, 1926, has proved to be abundantly true. He feared in 1926 that if he ruptured relations with the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics that action would in its echoes abroad increase the uncertainty, increase the fears and increase the instability of European conditions. And that is exactly the effect which was produced by the action which only a year before he had deplored and resisted. That is part of the heritage of the present Government, that is part of the heritage of my right hon. Friend. When we have been to Geneva, when we have visited The Hague, we have found there, and we have found elsewhere, evidences of this increased uncertainty, increased fear, and increased instability, which the right hon. Gentleman so clearly foresaw in 1926, and was unable to prevent in 1927. And it is our object now to diminish the fears, to diminish the uncertainty, and to diminish the instability, which were increased by the action of the right hon. Gentleman and of the last Government.
As for trade, there is little that I need add. Business men have been quoted. Hon. Members, one a supporter of the Government, and one a Member of the Liberal party have dealt with other aspects of the case, such as the herring fisheries. The hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Balfour) has admitted that he is a member of the Anglo-Russian Committee, but that he did not agree with the Report.

Mr. BALFOUR: I desire to correct that. I entirely agreed with that Report, but there were two conditions precedent to that Report: one was an absolutely determined guarantee for the absence of propaganda, and the other was the recognition of debts to British nationals.

Mr. DALTON: I am delighted to hear that the hon. Gentleman entirely agreed with the Report.

Mr. BALFOUR: On those two conditions.

Mr. DALTON: Now that he has told us that, perhaps I might be allowed to refer to the final paragraph of that Report, in which it is pointed out that there, is a
great deal of trade waiting for development: In a resolution carried on 10th April—the hon. Member agrees with this:
The delegates emphatically affirm the conclusion that no economic development between the two countries is possible without the existence of normal diplomatic relations"—

Mr. BALFOUR: Quite true.

Mr. DALTON: "—and undertakes to make these facts generally appreciated by British public opinion."

Mr. BALFOUR: The hon. Gentleman must recollect what was fundamental to the whole of this: It was unanimously agreed that none of these things could be done until we had a definite and absolute guarantee against propaganda. It was only on that condition that that Report was agreed to.

Mr. DALTON: It is a most interesting Report, and very well worth reading. It goes on—
and undertakes to make this fact generally appreciated by British public opinion"—
I expect, including the electorate of Hampstead—
and, having regard to the fact that this delegation is non-political, the Committee be requested to further the interests of British industry without regard to any political party, and to avoid anything which might be interpreted as introducing political bias.
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman and his friends upon drawing it up.

Mr. BALFOUR: The political bias is on your side.

Mr. DALTON: It is a very valuable report, and, if it secures a wide circulation, it will do a great deal of good in educating public opinion. I now come to propaganda. At the present time, there is no undertaking binding on the Soviet Government and the Third International against propaganda. There has been no such undertaking since the right hon. Gentleman opposite broke off relations with Russia, and since that time they have been subject to no undertakings regarding propaganda. We have now obtained an undertaking from Russia on that point. Whether or not that undertaking will prove effective the future will show. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs upon his interesting speech. In
that speech, he showed more knowledge of the history of this question than many other hon. Members, and he pointed out that Russian propaganda did not begin in 1917 with the Bolshevist revolution. It was Queen Victoria who in 1868—[Interruption.] Is it common form now in the Tory party to jeer when the name of Queen Victoria is mentioned? Is this the latest illustration of Tory loyalty? The right hon. Gentleman said that for many years before the War Russia was sending large sums of money out of her secret service to carry on propaganda in the East against British interests, and therefore it was no new thing. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs said that it was done in Persia, Afghanistan, Baluchistan and India, where large sums of money were spent in order to create anti-British sentiment in all those countries. Finally,

the right hon. Gentleman pointed out that that was only changed when an understanding was reached between British and Russian representatives. We say that there is now a possibility of building up a better understanding between this country and the Soviet Republics than has existed in the past. I ask the House to-night to give us authority to go forward and take the next step, to bury these stale old hatreds which have been an electioneering asset of the Tory party for so long, and to enable us to march forward towards better times, and a better understanding between these two great countries.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 324; Noes, 199.

Division No. 8.]
AYES.
[11.0 p.m.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Charleton, H. C.
Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Chater, Daniel
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)


Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher
Church, Major A. G.
Groves, Thomas E.


Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')
Clarke, J. S.
Grundy, Thomas W.


Alpass, J. H.
Cluse, W. S.
Hall, F. (York, W. R. Normanton)


Amnion, Charles George
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)


Angell, Norman
Cocks, Frederick Seymour
Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.)


Arnott, John
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)


Aske, Sir Robert
Compton, Joseph
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland).


Astor, Viscountess
Cove, William G.
Harbord, A.


Attlee, Clement Richard
Daggar, George
Hardie, George D.


Ayles, Walter
Dallas, George
Harris, Percy A.


Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)
Dalton, Hugh
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon.


Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)
Davies, E. C. (Montgomery)
Hastings, Dr. Somerville


Barnes, Alfred John
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Haycock, A. W.


Barr, James
Day, Harry
Hayday, Arthur


Batey, Joseph
Denman, Hon. R. D.
Hayes, John Henry


Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham)
Dickson, T.
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)


Bellamy, Albert
Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)


Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood
Dukes, C.
Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)


Bennett, Captain E. N. (Cardiff, Central)
Duncan, Charles
Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)


Bennett, William (Battersea, South)
Ede, James Chuter
Herriotts, J.


Benson, G.
Edge, Sir William
Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)


Bentham, Dr. Ethel
Edmunds, J. E.
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)


Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)
Edwards, E. (Morpeth)
Hoffman, P. C.


Birkett, W. Norman
Egan, W. H.
Hollins, A.


Blindell, James
Elmley, Viscount
Hopkin, Daniel


Boothby, R. J. G.
England, Colonel A.
Hore-Belisha, Leslie


Bowen, J. W.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)
Horrabin, J. F.


Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Foot, Isaac
Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)


Broad, Francis Alfred
Forgan, Dr. Robert
Hunter, Dr. Joseph


Brockway, A. Fenner
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)
Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.


Bromfield, William
Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)
Isaacs, George


Bromley, J.
George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn)
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)


Brooke, W.
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)
John, William (Rhondda, West)


Brothers, M.
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)
Johnston, Thomas


Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield)
Gibbins, Joseph
Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint)


Brown, Ernest (Leith)
Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)
Jones, Henry, Haydn (Merioneth)


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Gill, T. H.
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)


Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West)
Gillett, George M.
Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)


Buchan, John
Glassey, A. E.
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)


Buchanan, G.
Gosling, Harry
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)


Burgess, F. G.
Gossling, A. G.
Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.


Burgin, Dr. E. L.
Gould, F.
Jowitt, Rt. Hon. W. A.


Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)


Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.)
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)
Kelly, W. T.


Caine, Derwent Hall
Granville, E.
Kennedy, Thomas


Cameron, A. G.
Gray, Milner
Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.


Cape, Thomas
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne).
Kinley, J.


Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Kirkwood, D.


Knight, Holford
Nathan, Major H. L.
Smith, Rennie (Penistone)


Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)
Naylor, T. E.
Smith, Tom (Pontefract)


Lang, Gordon
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Smith, W. R. (Norwich)


Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George
Noel Baker, P. J.
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip


Lathan, G.
Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)
Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)


Law, Albert (Bolton)
Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)
Sorensen, R.


Law, A. (Rosendale)
Owen. H. F. (Hereford)
Spero, Dr. G. E.


Lawrence, Susan
Palin, John Henry
Stamford, Thomas W.


Lawson, John James
Paling, Wilfrid
Stephen, Campbell


Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)
Palmer, E. T.
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)


Leach, W.
Perry, S. F.
Strachey, E. J. St. Loe


Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.)
Peters, Dr. Sidney John
Strauss, G. R.


Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Sullivan, J.


Lees, J.
Phillips, Dr. Marion
Sutton, J. E.


Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Picton-Turberville, E.
Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)


Lloyd, C. Ellis
Pole, Major D. G.
Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)


Longbottom, A. W.
Ponsonby, Arthur
Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)


Longden, F.
Potts, John S.
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)


Lowth, Thomas
Price, M. P.
Thurtle, Ernest


Lunn, William
Quibell, D. J. K.
Tillett, Ben


Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)
Ramsay, T. B. Wilson
Tinker, John Joseph


MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)
Rathbone, Eleanor
Toole, Joseph


McElwee, A.
Raynes, W. R.
Tout, W. J.


McEntee, V. L.
Richards, R.
Townend, A. E.


Mackinder, W.
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles


McKinlay, A.
Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)
Turner, B.


MacLaren, Andrew
Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Vaughan, D. J.


Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Ritson, J.
Viant, S. P.


MacNeill-Weir, L.
Romeril, H. G.
Walker, J.


Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
Rosbotham, D. S. T.
Wallace, H. W.


McShane, John James
Rothschild, J. de
Wallhead, Richard C.


Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)
Rowson, Guy
Watkins, F. C.


Mansfield, W.
Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


March, S.
Salter, Dr. Alfred
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Marcus, M.
Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)
Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah


Markham, S. F.
Sanders, W. S.
Wellock, Wilfred


Marley, J.
Sandham, E.
Welsh, James (Paisley)


Mathers, George
Sawyer, G. F.
Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)


Matters, L. W.
Scott, James
West, F. R.


Maxton, James
Scrymgeour, E.
Westwood, Joseph


Melville, J. B.
Scurr, John
Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.


Messer, Fred
Sexton, James
White, H. G.


Middleton, G.
Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.
Whiteley, William (Blaydon)


Millar, J. D.
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)


Mills, J. E.
Sherwood, G. H.
Wilkinson, Ellen C.


Milner, J.
Shield, George William
Williams, David (Swansea, East)


Montague, Frederick
Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)


Morgan, Dr. H. B.
Shillaker, J. F.
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Morley, Ralph
Shinwell, E.
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Wilson, J. (Oldham)


Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)
Simmons, C. J.
Wilson R. J. (Jarrow)


Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)
Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh)


Mort, D. L.
Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)
Wise, E. F.


Moses, J. J. H.
Sinkinson, George
Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)


Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)
Sitch, Charles H.
Wright, W. (Rutherglen)


Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick)
Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)
Young, R. S. (Islington, North)


Muff, G.
Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)



Muggeridge, H. T.
Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES—


Murnin, Hugh
Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.




Charles Edwards


NOES.


Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles
Braithwaite, Major A. N.
Cranbourne, Viscount


Albery, Irving James
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)
Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.


Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)
Buckingham, Sir H.
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.
Bullock, Captain Malcoim
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)


Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)
Burton, Colonel H. W.
Croom-Johnson, R. P.


Atholl, Duchess of
Butler, R. A.
Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)


Atkinson, C.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip


Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W.
Carver, Major W. H.
Dalkeith, Earl of


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)
Castlestewart, Earl of
Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Cautley, Sir Henry S.
Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)


Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)
Davies, Dr. Vernon


Balniel, Lord
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)


Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)


Beaumont, M. W.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)
Duckworth, G. A. V.


Bellairs, Commander Carlyon
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)
Dugdale, Capt. T. L.


Bennett, Sir Albert (Nottingham, C.)
Christie, J. A.
Eden, Captain Anthony


Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer
Edmondson, Major A. J.


Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George
Elliot, Major Walter E.


Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Cohen, Major J. Brunel
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s. M.)


Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart
Colman, N. C. D.
Everard, W. Lindsay


Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.
Colville, Major D. J.
Falle, Sir Bertram G.


Boyce, H. L.
Courtauld, Major J. S.
Ferguson, Sir John


Bracken, B.
Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.
Fermoy, Lord




Fielden, E. B.
Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)
Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart


Fison, F. G. Clavering
Little, Dr. E. Graham
Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.


Ford, Sir P. J.
Llewellin, Major J. J.
Savery, S. S.


Forestier-Walker, Sir L.
Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey
Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome


Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)


Galbraith, J. F. W.
Long, Major Eric
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)


Ganzoni, Sir John
Lymington, Viscount
Smith-Carington, Neville W.


Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Smithers, Waldron


Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)
Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Southby, Commander A. R. J.


Glyn, Major R. G. C.
Margesson, Captain H. D.
Spender-Clay, Colonel H.


Gower, Sir Robert
Marjoribanks, E. C.
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)


Grace, John
Mason, Colonel Glyn K.
Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)


Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)
Meller, R. J.
Stuart, J. C. (Moray and Nairn)


Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.


Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter
Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W.
Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)


Greene, W. P. Crawford
Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond)
Thomson, Sir F.


Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)
Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Tinne, J. A.


Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John
Morden, Col. W. Grant
Titchfield, Major the Marquess of


Gunston, Captain D. W.
Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)
Todd, Capt. A. J.


Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Train, J.


Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Muirhead, A. J.
Turton, Robert Hugh


Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon


Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)


Hartington, Marquess of
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld)
Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)


Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Wardlaw-Milne, J. S.


Haslam, Henry C.
Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Warrender, Sir Victor


Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)
O'Neill, Sir H.
Waterhouse, Captain Charles


Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Peake, Capt. Osbert
Wayland, Sir William A.


Herbert, S. (York, N. R. Scar. & Wh'by)
Penny, Sir George
Wells, Sydney R.


Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)


Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George


Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.
Pilditch, Sir Philip
Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl


Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Pownall, Sir Assheton
Withers, Sir John James


Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Purbrick, R.
Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount


Hurd, Percy A.
Ramsbotham, H.
Womersley, W. J.


Hurst, Sir Gerald B.
Rawson, Sir Cooper
Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley


Iveagh, Countess of
Reynolds, Col. Sir James
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)
Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell
Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavlst'k)


Kindersley, Major G. M.
Ross, Major Ronald D.
Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton


King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D.
Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.



Knox, Sir Alfred
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Salmon, Major I.
Sir B. Eyres Monsell and Major


Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Sir George Hennessy.


Leighton, Major B. E. P.
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)



Main Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved,
That this House is of the opinion that the resumption of full diplomatic relations between this country and Russia is desirable, and approves the procedure for the settlement of questions outstanding between the two countries, including those relating to propaganda and debts, as set out in the Protocol of 3rd October, 1929, and published in Command Paper 3418.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

ADJOURNMENT.

Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Kennedy.]

Adjourned accordingly at Fifteen Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.